WSJ - To Increase Equity, School Districts Eliminate Honors Classes

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Article from WSJ today. Too bad for the schools doing this,


https://www.wsj.com/articles/to-increase-equity-school-districts-eliminate-honors-classes-d5985dee

Instead of eliminating honors which is the national trend, MCPS is doing the opposite and raising the bar by requiring honors for all.

Except they're not raising the bar. They're diluting the rigor in the name of honors for all.

Is there any evidence to this effect or is it just your assumption?

DP.. have you looked at the scores of certain segments of the MCPS student population? A lot of those kids are in "honors" classes because a lot of the HS no longer have on track classes.

There is so much grade inflation, 50% rule, retake of exams, it's hard not to get bad grades, but still, some do.

The 50% rule is hardly a concern. I'm fine with it because some kid might get a C- instead of D+. I'm also fine with retakes since the point is learning, not punishment. In the end, if students learn more then MCPS is doing its job well. Further, none of this has anything to do with expecting all students to meet a higher standard by offering honors for all.

This. I don't see any problems with expecting all students to meet a higher standard, especially English, the national language of the country.

There is no national language in the United States. Just FYI.

There is no OFFICIAL language but English is the language spoken nationally.

Many countries have one or more official languages. We don’t, but of course English is the de facto official language.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

It HASN'T! Look at Kennedy's data. They had Honors for All since 2017 and the results have not improved.

Stop ignoring the obvious and pull your head out of the sand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

That's not true. They're raising the standards and expecting more of everyone.

You must be a teen.

Everyone knows that the bolded is what No Child Left Behind tried to do...and it largely failed.

You can't just *expect* more and, voila, it happens.

Plus, in practice this will translate into lower expectations for the best and most motivated students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

First, common sense. How can it possibly be that a teacher could teach kids at extremely different ends of the spectrum? Take a simple example - an English writing assignment. Some kids could analyze a text and write a 5-page essay. Kids who are failing the state exams couldn't. So the only option is to "differentiate" by having harder and easier assignments in the same class -- which is basically tracking by any other name except less effective.

Second, evidence. There is meaningful research showing that detracking can hurt those it purports to help. "The most surprising finding of the analysis was that students from disadvantaged backgrounds appeared to benefit from tracking. Figlio and Page concluded, “We can find no evidence that detracking America’s schools, as is currently in vogue, will improve outcomes among disadvantaged students. This trend may instead harm the very students that detracking is intended to help” (p. 29)." https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2021/10/04/does-detracking-promote-educational-equity/

Sure, I get you are invested in believing the worst, but common sense says I should take MCPS at face value.

Common sense is not common, as you are so expertly proving with your lack of comprehension, analysis and critical thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

It's great that MCPS is doing this!

[Anonymous]

Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

It HASN'T! Look at Kennedy's data. They had Honors for All since 2017 and the results have not improved.

Stop ignoring the obvious and pull your head out of the sand.

Actually, the Kennedy data was thoroughly convincing that raising the bar resulted in dramatic improvement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know that there are more honors classes not less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know that there are more honors classes not less.

They are not actual honors classes. How can you have an accelerated class with such dramatically different levels of ability?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know that there are more honors classes not less.

They are not actual honors classes. How can you have an accelerated class with such dramatically different levels of ability?

But MCPS said they were actual honors classes. I get that you want to pretend that the sky is falling but just saying things doesn't make it true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

+ a million, and every teacher knows it.

The new policy is just another example of harmful virtue signaling.

+1 It's the policy of "to achieve the appearance of equity, we must apply rules unequally".

I get this is the narrative you guys want to buy into but it isn't at all what MCPS is doing. You're just making all these assumptions without any evidence.

You keep saying there's no evidence. The evidence is in MCPS's Evidence of Learning data.

This data is so bad the NAACP and the Black and Brown Coalition have sounded the alarm on how far behind black and brown kids are.

Raising expectations and requiring honors for all should help!

It HASN'T! Look at Kennedy's data. They had Honors for All since 2017 and the results have not improved.

Stop ignoring the obvious and pull your head out of the sand.

Actually, the Kennedy data was thoroughly convincing that raising the bar resulted in dramatic improvement.

What dramatic improvement did you see? You're not making any sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know that there are more honors classes not less.

They are not actual honors classes. How can you have an accelerated class with such dramatically different levels of ability?

But MCPS said they were actual honors classes. I get that you want to pretend that the sky is falling but just saying things doesn't make it true.

And I get that if you pretend to ignore facts and first-hand experiences of parents with students in these schools and classes that you feel like you're winning, but you're not.

It's called gaslighting and you're not good at it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

I present to you MCPS own Evidence of Learning data dashboard: https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/data/LAR-charts/Evidence-of-Learning-Grade11.html

With 71% of all student meeting the on-level requirements for literacy and only 60% meeting the requirements for on-level math, I can assure that it's not possible they're passing and thriving in a truly rigorous "honors" class if their school has adopted an honors for all model.

In fact, you can drill down to Kennedy, which has had an honors for all model since 2017 and see the data:

64% met the watermark for literacy in 2022
40% met the watermark for math in 2022

And yet, I bet you 60% of kids are not getting D's or E's on their report cards in math, nor are 36% getting D's or E's in their English and History classes.

There's the evidence you need to know that honors-for-all does not result in anything that looks like raising the bar and uplifting the performance of students in any way, shape or form.

Huh??
If 71% of students are meeting on-level requirements for literacy, I can assure you they can handle honors classes .
It's only 38% statewide and 28% nationwide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those with means will circumvent the system as they always have. No honors classes in schools = greater demand for private tutoring services. Only those who are economically disadvantaged could be hurt by the decline of standards in public school education.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know that there are more honors classes not less.

They are not actual honors classes. How can you have an accelerated class with such dramatically different levels of ability?

But MCPS said they were actual honors classes. I get that you want to pretend that the sky is falling but just saying things doesn't make it true.

And I get that if you pretend to ignore facts and first-hand experiences of parents with students in these schools and classes that you feel like you're winning, but you're not.

It's called gaslighting and you're not good at it.

I was going to post the exact same thing about the people claiming that honors classes aren't really honors classes. Seriously stop at the gas lighting already. There's no evidence that supports any of these claims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why is the solution alllllllllways to kowtow to the lowest common denominator.

This should be great for America's progress and innovation - knee cap the brightest because half the class are children of illegal migrants who need all sorts of remedial work since they can't even speak English.

People just cannot handle the fact there is also a natural bell curve of intelligence. Stop holding back our best.

Well, then you'll be pleased to know this is not what they're doing. Instead, they're raising up lower-performing students by requiring all students to perform at a high level.

No they are not. It is impossible to teach a higher level class if 50% of the class cannot even get close to meeting state math/ELA standards. Ridiculous assertion. I am all for high expectations for everyone, but tracking is necessary to accomplish it.

Evidence?

I present to you MCPS own Evidence of Learning data dashboard: https://ww2.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/data/LAR-charts/Evidence-of-Learning-Grade11.html

With 71% of all student meeting the on-level requirements for literacy and only 60% meeting the requirements for on-level math, I can assure that it's not possible they're passing and thriving in a truly rigorous "honors" class if their school has adopted an honors for all model.

In fact, you can drill down to Kennedy, which has had an honors for all model since 2017 and see the data:

64% met the watermark for literacy in 2022
40% met the watermark for math in 2022

And yet, I bet you 60% of kids are not getting D's or E's on their report cards in math, nor are 36% getting D's or E's in their English and History classes.

There's the evidence you need to know that honors-for-all does not result in anything that looks like raising the bar and uplifting the performance of students in any way, shape or form.

Huh??
If 71% of students are meeting on-level requirements for literacy, I can assure you they can handle honors classes .
It's only 38% statewide and 28% nationwide

Are you citing MCAP data? You do realize that test is meaningless.