the cost of working - SAHM vs WOHM

[Anonymous]

Anecdotally, every woman I know married to a man who doesn’t do his share, actively does things to enable the behavior. From quitting her job, EBF, not sleep training, never leaving the kids to go away for a weekend, not demanding her husband takes any parental leave etc. I am in a egalitarian marriage with a husband who does 50/50 and supports my career. I have taken a different path than some of my friends but they would probably describe me as lucky to have a husband who actively parents and does his share.

But my friends never:

1. Formula fed so their husband was responsible for a window of time for the baby
2. Left their young baby without instructions for the day with their husband
3. Returned to work
4. Went away for the weekend with girlfriends
5. Refused to have more kids if their husband didn’t take parental leave

If you EBF and quit your job while your husband returns to work, you’re essentially saying the child is 100% your responsibility and not your husband’s. You’re saying your husband earns the $ and you do the housework/childcare. It’s very hard to break these habits. Men get very used to having a career while their wife stays home and does everything else.

Holy Judgement Batman! How do you hold down a full time job while being a mom and also holding so many people in contempt for their personal choices that don't have anything to do with you?! What are you, Supermom???

In all seriousness, this sounds like it worked for you but is an absolutely insane dictate to force on every other woman. It's also incredibly regressive because you are putting ALL of the responsibility for creating equality/egalitarianism in a marriage on the woman. Like what if a woman wants to breastfeed and it goes great and it makes her feel really good to do that for her kid (I'm pro-formula, by the way, but I'm also pro-free will)? If she chooses to EBF does that automatically mean that any inequality in her marriage is HER FAULT? Because that's insane.

And you are also demanding all women do weekends away with girlfriends? That's just... very specific. I didn't do weekends away with girlfriends before I had a baby, so I'm not going to start now probably. Sometimes my DH takes our kid for solo weekends with his mom though, and I get time to myself which is great. Although you're not going to believe this, but he does this even though I breastfed AND quit my job after my baby was born. I know, CRAZY, right? I just hated my job and wanted a longer maternity leave, so we talked it through and figured out a way to do it. I went back to work, but not immediately, and then only PT for a while. And yet, my DH kept up being an equal partner all the way through because that's actually HIS job, not mine, to make happen.

In fact, right this moment, he's doing laundry and cleaning the bathrooms because he took a personal day from work to catch up on housework. I'm working (er, "working"/wasting time on DCUM). Our kid is at school and despite the fact that I breastfed her, my DH prepares more than half of her meals.

Again, glad your choices worked out for you, but the fact that you feel the need to harshly judge women who make other choices indicates to me that maybe you don't have any of this as figured out as you think you do. Like your comment is loaded with resentment and anger. I don't know at what, but I think it has more to do with your life than anything any other woman has ever done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I think that’s a really unfair thing to ask of a woman. You’d never had a baby before - what if you’d changed your mind once you actually gave birth? And your husband will never know what it’s like to give birth. Also, that just seems slimy to me of your husband to ask that. To me it sounds like, “I don’t care how you feel when you actually have the baby. The most important thing to me is that you keep making money for us.”

The point is, we both agreed that neither of us had a choice to SAH. We bought a house with a mortgage that required two salaries. I'm not really the kind of person who has changed her mind much as an adult. It's not slimy; he saw his dad live under tremendous stress because his was the sole income. Who wants that kind of stress? The important thing is that we were both clear from the beginning about what we wanted, and communicated that to the other early on the relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does everyone just decide to keep working if they don't come out ahead? Anyone make decisions based on wanting to be with your kids?

No. You see your kids plenty after they are about 5. My experience was that moms who wanted to be with their kids had tons of family, friend or paid help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming everyone on dcum is of the professional working class, the question should actually be flipped: what’s the cost of not working?

Not arguing that upper middle class educated women shouldn’t be SAH, but there is a huge financial loss when they do make that decision. There is also the risk they take in trusting that their spouse will always be there to support them financially. For example, you SAH for ten years and then Dh wants a divorce, no 401k of your own, no marketable skillset except for cleaning and wiping butts… Eeek

.the cost is missing out on your kid's childhood, spending little time with them, having someone else instill their values into your kid.

So dad miss out on their childrens' childhood by working, or is it just moms? The dad spend little time with their kids, just because they work full time? Ditto with their values? Come on, this is shallow rhetoric. My kids definitely know what my values are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I didn't want to be a SAHM but I wouldn't marry that guy.

Your choice, of course. I've been married to "that guy" for 25 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I think that’s a really unfair thing to ask of a woman. You’d never had a baby before - what if you’d changed your mind once you actually gave birth? And your husband will never know what it’s like to give birth. Also, that just seems slimy to me of your husband to ask that. To me it sounds like, “I don’t care how you feel when you actually have the baby. The most important thing to me is that you keep making money for us.”

The point is, we both agreed that neither of us had a choice to SAH. We bought a house with a mortgage that required two salaries. I'm not really the kind of person who has changed her mind much as an adult. It's not slimy; he saw his dad live under tremendous stress because his was the sole income. Who wants that kind of stress? The important thing is that we were both clear from the beginning about what we wanted, and communicated that to the other early on the relationship.

NP. My dh and I made that decision also while dating. So many reasons
-more household income
-DH doesn't have to lean in, work nonstop, and can be home for dinner at 5:30 every night
-makes husband and wife 50/50 partners

But we did get a mortgage that we could support on one income in case the worst happened (like a special needs baby) and one of us needed to stay home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming everyone on dcum is of the professional working class, the question should actually be flipped: what’s the cost of not working?

Not arguing that upper middle class educated women shouldn’t be SAH, but there is a huge financial loss when they do make that decision. There is also the risk they take in trusting that their spouse will always be there to support them financially. For example, you SAH for ten years and then Dh wants a divorce, no 401k of your own, no marketable skillset except for cleaning and wiping butts… Eeek

.the cost is missing out on your kid's childhood, spending little time with them, having someone else instill their values into your kid.

What?! Do you have kids? 2 year olds to play outside with a ball, play in the dirt, poop, eat and sleep. It's not like you teach Kant's value theory to a 2 year old. How can you miss on their childhood when they should be in preschool anyway starting at 3? Developmentally, it makes no sense.

You really have no clue about how influential early caregivers are! Literally the very foundation of a person is formed during those early years. Things like how you deal with adversity, temperament, language, comfortable being outdoors etc etc. You must have outsourced or else you wouldn’t have asked this.

So your husband outsourced this to you, or that's okay because he sleeps with you so you know his values?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

Is he an equal partner on the home/kid front?

Yes on the kid front, no on the home front.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think all moms who want to quit jobs need to make use of annuity stream calculators and see how much in list lifetime savings (earnings, pensions etc) this results in. In my case it was around $5mm over the course of 30 years! Unfortunately, I only ran the calculator when my DH asked for a divorce after 18 years together
My advice to all younger women who work: don’t quit until your 50% of marital assets (combined net equity in houses after cap gain; 401k, etc) are accumulatively equal to your potential lost lifetime earnings. Don’t count joint brokerage accounts which can be easily cashed - my exH cleared all accounts under his control during divorce; he was taking around $100k/ month in cash! Only count hard assets

Otherwise quitting is like buying a merchandise that will only work in 50% cases (half marriages end in divorce statistically )

That's not true for people who are middle class and above, educated, and who marry in their late 20's or older (most of DCUM). It's true that women need to protect their financial stability, but life is about more than total lifetime earnings.

A mom's working status does not materially impact her relationship with her children. I worked 45 hours a week or more the entire time my children were growing up, and we have always been close, including now when they are young adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming everyone on dcum is of the professional working class, the question should actually be flipped: what’s the cost of not working?

Not arguing that upper middle class educated women shouldn’t be SAH, but there is a huge financial loss when they do make that decision. There is also the risk they take in trusting that their spouse will always be there to support them financially. For example, you SAH for ten years and then Dh wants a divorce, no 401k of your own, no marketable skillset except for cleaning and wiping butts… Eeek

.the cost is missing out on your kid's childhood, spending little time with them, having someone else instill their values into your kid.

What?! Do you have kids? 2 year olds to play outside with a ball, play in the dirt, poop, eat and sleep. It's not like you teach Kant's value theory to a 2 year old. How can you miss on their childhood when they should be in preschool anyway starting at 3? Developmentally, it makes no sense.

You really have no clue about how influential early caregivers are! Literally the very foundation of a person is formed during those early years. Things like how you deal with adversity, temperament, language, comfortable being outdoors etc etc. You must have outsourced or else you wouldn’t have asked this.

So your husband outsourced this to you, or that's okay because he sleeps with you so you know his values?

And then we have 80 pages on that thread about why women are unhappy in their marriage, and over and over again, is about men not taking care of the kids, not lifting a finger in the house, not knowing who the kids' dentist is etc. etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does everyone just decide to keep working if they don't come out ahead? Anyone make decisions based on wanting to be with your kids?

No. You see your kids plenty after they are about 5. My experience was that moms who wanted to be with their kids had tons of family, friend or paid help.

Your experience is limited. I decided to stay home with my DC for the first two years of her life and I have no local family and we had zero paid help at that time (we didn't even hire sitters for date nights except a couple times because me being home meant we had to be very careful with expenses). I also have no idea what kind of help people get from their friends -- mine are great but are definitely not providing childcare help, lol.

The reason I decided to do this is that I had my child late after not being sure I would have a baby at all. I knew it was unlikely I'd have another. I didn't expect to love the baby phase (always assumed I'd like the older kid/teen stage best) but I did. When it was time for me to return to work as planned, I realized that what I really wanted was to stay home, to really enjoy these early days with what was almost certainly my only child. I stayed home for two years and then started working PT. My kid is in school now but I still don't work FT and my priorities absolutely start with being a parent -- work is how I make money so that our family can afford certain things. But it is not my life's work. That's my kid.

I'd never judge anyone for returning to work after leave and being a WOH mom. I had every expectation that would be me. My priorities changed drastically when my child was born and I realized that I wanted something specific out of this experience and in order to get it, I'd need to be home or at least PT.

The idea that NO ONE makes this decision based largely on wanting to spend time with their child is false. I know other women like me. We are well-educated professionals. I know a couple who have spouses who are just very high earners, but most of us don't -- we SAH for some period of time based entirely on just wanting that time with our kids. It's really not uncommon.

If you don't know people like this, that's fine. But you don't know everyone. Stop assuming your experience is universal. It's very much not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I think that’s a really unfair thing to ask of a woman. You’d never had a baby before - what if you’d changed your mind once you actually gave birth? And your husband will never know what it’s like to give birth. Also, that just seems slimy to me of your husband to ask that. To me it sounds like, “I don’t care how you feel when you actually have the baby. The most important thing to me is that you keep making money for us.”

The point is, we both agreed that neither of us had a choice to SAH. We bought a house with a mortgage that required two salaries. I'm not really the kind of person who has changed her mind much as an adult. It's not slimy; he saw his dad live under tremendous stress because his was the sole income. Who wants that kind of stress? The important thing is that we were both clear from the beginning about what we wanted, and communicated that to the other early on the relationship.

It sounds like you created stress by your spending choices. We bought a house we could afford on one salary just in case one of us lost our jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I think that’s a really unfair thing to ask of a woman. You’d never had a baby before - what if you’d changed your mind once you actually gave birth? And your husband will never know what it’s like to give birth. Also, that just seems slimy to me of your husband to ask that. To me it sounds like, “I don’t care how you feel when you actually have the baby. The most important thing to me is that you keep making money for us.”

The point is, we both agreed that neither of us had a choice to SAH. We bought a house with a mortgage that required two salaries. I'm not really the kind of person who has changed her mind much as an adult. It's not slimy; he saw his dad live under tremendous stress because his was the sole income. Who wants that kind of stress? The important thing is that we were both clear from the beginning about what we wanted, and communicated that to the other early on the relationship.

NP. My dh and I made that decision also while dating. So many reasons
-more household income
-DH doesn't have to lean in, work nonstop, and can be home for dinner at 5:30 every night
-makes husband and wife 50/50 partners

But we did get a mortgage that we could support on one income in case the worst happened (like a special needs baby) and one of us needed to stay home.

You can have all of that with one parent working.

[Anonymous]

I haven’t read the replies. The cost for me of being a SAHM would be depression so I wouldn’t bother to calculate. I know myself. Love my kid but I’m just not cut out for it.

Also say my DH were to be SAHD. We would still need the cleaning service 2x / month and we pay $280 / month. He works way less hours than me but is incapable of keeping the house clean. He’s a pretty good dad though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is gender equality here? If I was the breadwinner husband and if my wife decided not to work anymore, I think I would lose some respect for her. Will most of those marriages end when one of the sides hit a mid life crisis?

By our third date, my husband was telling me he only wanted to marry a woman who would continue to work after marriage and kids. I appreciate his forthrightness and as I never had any interest in SAH, we ended up getting married and being dual WOHP. My guess is that most people discuss this extensively with prospective spouses.

I think that’s a really unfair thing to ask of a woman. You’d never had a baby before - what if you’d changed your mind once you actually gave birth? And your husband will never know what it’s like to give birth. Also, that just seems slimy to me of your husband to ask that. To me it sounds like, “I don’t care how you feel when you actually have the baby. The most important thing to me is that you keep making money for us.”

+1 I was ambitious and shocked when I realized I wanted to stay home. I went back to work, had a second kid, went back to work again and through it all I consistently wanted to be at home. I was super thankful my DH supported that, and that I’d paid off my strident loans rather than wait for PSLF to kick in. I think we still could have made SAH work even with the loans, but it was nice that wasn’t a factor.

This. I never thought I'd want to stay home with my kids. But when they were small, it's all I wanted. People told me that it would be hard to go to work at first but that it would get better. It didn't -- I hated it every day! I hated that I was working so that we could pay someone else to do the things I wanted to be doing. It made no sense to me. I quit and have no regrets about it. My only regret is in not listening to myself when I was miserable returning to the office and trying to convince myself it was "just" hormones (it's definitely partly hormones but that doensn't make it wrong -- sometimes when your hormones scream at you, you should listen to them!) and that I'd get over it and that this was normal and right.

Basically all the PPs in this thread giving 101 reasons why women should never SAHM -- that was my inner monologue. And then I finally listened to my own mind instead of all the influences telling me that only regressive trad wives become SAHMs, and realized that it's what I wanted.

If you really want to stay home with your kids for some amount of time, and you and your spouse figure out together how to make it work financially, do it. And ignore these people yelling at you that you're betraying feminism for that your DH will leave you tomorrow. They don't know you, and they don't know your marriage. Do what works for you. There are lots of ways to live.