Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think what the PP was trying to say is that people are posting things like, "My understanding, based on conversations directly with KC, is that her outcomes are very good. She is very open about the losses she has had - six or seven total, depending on how you count her statistics (yes, she includes this case). She also has a 3% cesarean rate, a 5% transfer rate, and serves women who are having twins, VBACs and breech babies."

Why should we believe you when you state this? If everyone is suspect in what they are saying then why should this statement carry any more weight than someone else's statement which isn't as positive?

I will repeat what others have said. Call KC and ask her.

You have her number? Actually I wouldn't call her because her rates don't interest me. But I do wonder how she tracks he own statistics. Without anything formal I really don't think I would believe them. That is just me though. It clearly seems to be good enough for others.

Of course they don't. All anyone here is interested in, is juicy gossip. Let's stomp out anyone with a different view and call the CPM a reckless baby killer....it's so much more exciting then trying to figure out the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most libel statements made have been by KC herself. Those quotes in the article did a lot of damage to her own reputation.

Yes, I was shocked by her statements. She does not come across very credibly, she was wise to take the plea.

I was somewhat repelled to read that she "kisses her clients on the forehead". In many professions, that would be considered misconduct.


I prefer to receive my health care from professionals who do not kiss me. Talk about paternalistic behavior!

Yes, the midwife model of care is very different. Some might kiss a Mama on the forehead, some will greet a Mama with a big hug, some are more reserved. It varies with each person (which is why people interview midwives...to find the right match). It is usually a *much* more personal approach. Instead of the usual 10 minute appt., a prenatal with a MW can often take an hour or longer. It is not paternalistic...it's supportive and caring

The MW model of care isn't for everyone but it is definitly a perfect fit for some which is why it must remain an option.

And speaking of paternalistic, if anyone other than my kids calls me "mama," we won't be having a professional relationship for much longer.

You see the term Mama as paternalistic....I see it as a term of respect. You clearly want a cold wall between yourselfb and your HCP...fine. If it's your thing, go for it. There are certainly plenty who will provide just that. Others, however, do not and that is absolutely their choice to make.

There are also those who choose to birth at home with a CPM. Again, that should be their choice to make. You may not like it...you may think it's a bad choice; however, that it completely irrelevant to them. Just as you should have the ability to have the birth attendant of your choice...so should they.

Is it also my right to have a nurse practitioner to my brain surgery?

How does wanting to be addressed by my actual name and not "mama" mean that I want a cold wall between myself and my care provider? I think that using my actual, real name shows a lot more respect than a generic term that addresses only my reproductive function. And I think that my care providers show a lot more respect for me by remembering my real name than by using one generic name for every, single person there. But as you say, your opinion is different, and that's fine.

I don't think that homebirth should be illegal. Women can do what they want to their own bodies. However, I do believe that women should know what they're signing up for, which includes the fact that the CPM credential requires very little in terms of training and skills, as compared to CNMs. Your CPM may have gone above and beyond the requirements, but do most women know to even ask? And it's also good to know that all homebirth transfers MUST be counted among hospital statistics, but that your homebirth midwife may not be counting the outcomes after hospital transfers in hers. I've seen it here (in TX), and I really doubt it's different there. So please, choose whatever care provider makes you feel happy, but do it knowing that there is a huge variability in skill, judgment, and training in CPMs, and that if your baby dies in a homebirth with a CPM due to negligence, there's very little you can do to keep her from attending more births, or to even have her license revoked (again, we've seen it in TX, and I doubt it's all that different there).

. Who said a MW wouldn't call you by your first name? So far here (unless I missed it) I'm the only person who's used the term and I'm not a MW.

I do think it's sad that so many here presume that Mamas who birth at home are ignorant and don't do research when choosing where and with whom to birth. I'm sure there are some who don't give the decision its due diligence; however, I've found that those who do choose to give birth at home have done *extensive* research.

Yes, but the point is, how good is that "research?" And if she has a bad outcome due to midwife negligence, is it her fault for not doing enough "research?" If the CPM credential is next to meaningless on its own, is it really fair to expect the clients to sort the wheat from the chaff?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most libel statements made have been by KC herself. Those quotes in the article did a lot of damage to her own reputation.

Yes, I was shocked by her statements. She does not come across very credibly, she was wise to take the plea.

I was somewhat repelled to read that she "kisses her clients on the forehead". In many professions, that would be considered misconduct.


I prefer to receive my health care from professionals who do not kiss me. Talk about paternalistic behavior!

Yes, the midwife model of care is very different. Some might kiss a Mama on the forehead, some will greet a Mama with a big hug, some are more reserved. It varies with each person (which is why people interview midwives...to find the right match). It is usually a *much* more personal approach. Instead of the usual 10 minute appt., a prenatal with a MW can often take an hour or longer. It is not paternalistic...it's supportive and caring

The MW model of care isn't for everyone but it is definitly a perfect fit for some which is why it must remain an option.

And speaking of paternalistic, if anyone other than my kids calls me "mama," we won't be having a professional relationship for much longer.

You see the term Mama as paternalistic....I see it as a term of respect. You clearly want a cold wall between yourselfb and your HCP...fine. If it's your thing, go for it. There are certainly plenty who will provide just that. Others, however, do not and that is absolutely their choice to make.

There are also those who choose to birth at home with a CPM. Again, that should be their choice to make. You may not like it...you may think it's a bad choice; however, that it completely irrelevant to them. Just as you should have the ability to have the birth attendant of your choice...so should they.

Is it also my right to have a nurse practitioner to my brain surgery?

How does wanting to be addressed by my actual name and not "mama" mean that I want a cold wall between myself and my care provider? I think that using my actual, real name shows a lot more respect than a generic term that addresses only my reproductive function. And I think that my care providers show a lot more respect for me by remembering my real name than by using one generic name for every, single person there. But as you say, your opinion is different, and that's fine.

I don't think that homebirth should be illegal. Women can do what they want to their own bodies. However, I do believe that women should know what they're signing up for, which includes the fact that the CPM credential requires very little in terms of training and skills, as compared to CNMs. Your CPM may have gone above and beyond the requirements, but do most women know to even ask? And it's also good to know that all homebirth transfers MUST be counted among hospital statistics, but that your homebirth midwife may not be counting the outcomes after hospital transfers in hers. I've seen it here (in TX), and I really doubt it's different there. So please, choose whatever care provider makes you feel happy, but do it knowing that there is a huge variability in skill, judgment, and training in CPMs, and that if your baby dies in a homebirth with a CPM due to negligence, there's very little you can do to keep her from attending more births, or to even have her license revoked (again, we've seen it in TX, and I doubt it's all that different there).

. Who said a MW wouldn't call you by your first name? So far here (unless I missed it) I'm the only person who's used the term and I'm not a MW.

I do think it's sad that so many here presume that Mamas who birth at home are ignorant and don't do research when choosing where and with whom to birth. I'm sure there are some who don't give the decision its due diligence; however, I've found that those who do choose to give birth at home have done *extensive* research.

Yes, but the point is, how good is that "research?" And if she has a bad outcome due to midwife negligence, is it her fault for not doing enough "research?" If the CPM credential is next to meaningless on its own, is it really fair to expect the clients to sort the wheat from the chaff?

You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most libel statements made have been by KC herself. Those quotes in the article did a lot of damage to her own reputation.

Yes, I was shocked by her statements. She does not come across very credibly, she was wise to take the plea.

I was somewhat repelled to read that she "kisses her clients on the forehead". In many professions, that would be considered misconduct.


I prefer to receive my health care from professionals who do not kiss me. Talk about paternalistic behavior!

Yes, the midwife model of care is very different. Some might kiss a Mama on the forehead, some will greet a Mama with a big hug, some are more reserved. It varies with each person (which is why people interview midwives...to find the right match). It is usually a *much* more personal approach. Instead of the usual 10 minute appt., a prenatal with a MW can often take an hour or longer. It is not paternalistic...it's supportive and caring

The MW model of care isn't for everyone but it is definitly a perfect fit for some which is why it must remain an option.

And speaking of paternalistic, if anyone other than my kids calls me "mama," we won't be having a professional relationship for much longer.

You see the term Mama as paternalistic....I see it as a term of respect. You clearly want a cold wall between yourselfb and your HCP...fine. If it's your thing, go for it. There are certainly plenty who will provide just that. Others, however, do not and that is absolutely their choice to make.

There are also those who choose to birth at home with a CPM. Again, that should be their choice to make. You may not like it...you may think it's a bad choice; however, that it completely irrelevant to them. Just as you should have the ability to have the birth attendant of your choice...so should they.

Is it also my right to have a nurse practitioner to my brain surgery?

How does wanting to be addressed by my actual name and not "mama" mean that I want a cold wall between myself and my care provider? I think that using my actual, real name shows a lot more respect than a generic term that addresses only my reproductive function. And I think that my care providers show a lot more respect for me by remembering my real name than by using one generic name for every, single person there. But as you say, your opinion is different, and that's fine.

I don't think that homebirth should be illegal. Women can do what they want to their own bodies. However, I do believe that women should know what they're signing up for, which includes the fact that the CPM credential requires very little in terms of training and skills, as compared to CNMs. Your CPM may have gone above and beyond the requirements, but do most women know to even ask? And it's also good to know that all homebirth transfers MUST be counted among hospital statistics, but that your homebirth midwife may not be counting the outcomes after hospital transfers in hers. I've seen it here (in TX), and I really doubt it's different there. So please, choose whatever care provider makes you feel happy, but do it knowing that there is a huge variability in skill, judgment, and training in CPMs, and that if your baby dies in a homebirth with a CPM due to negligence, there's very little you can do to keep her from attending more births, or to even have her license revoked (again, we've seen it in TX, and I doubt it's all that different there).

Why do you think you have the power, information, or authority to make that determination? CPMs are ALLOWED to deliver breech babies at home. Some women, after very thorough research, CHOOSE to birth their breech baby at home. This is not negligence. It is informed decision making. The risks of breech birth are only marginally higher than the risks of vertex birth. Unfortunately in this particular case, everyone lost their gamble - it doesn't mean that anyone did anything negligent.

In your opinion, if Karen Carr had her VA license, and the entire rest of the story was the same, would you consider her negligent? Deserving of jail time?

I wasn't talking about this case, although in my opinion she was negligent in not getting the mom to the hospital within 5-10 minutes of the head entrapment. But I'm the one who has to take care of the disaster once it gets to the hospital, so maybe I'm excessively conservative compared to CPMs.

I was referring to cases that I've seen here (TX), in which live babies have (barely) made it through the traumatic birth but then didn't receive the respiratory support they needed and "mysteriously" died. Yes, in my opinion that's negligence. And in both cases, the midwife was "sentenced" by other CPMs to a few months of probation and they're still out there, delivering babies, not having to tell the new moms anything about their history of negligently causing infant deaths. CPMs should be held to higher training standards than CNMs, since they're out there with no back-up, but instead they're held to much lower standards. Again, moms are free to choose whatever they like, but I'm not sure that "research" into any given CPM will really tell the whole story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

[Anonymous]

"I wasn't talking about this case, although in my opinion she was negligent in not getting the mom to the hospital within 5-10 minutes of the head entrapment. But I'm the one who has to take care of the disaster once it gets to the hospital, so maybe I'm excessively conservative compared to CPMs.

I was referring to cases that I've seen here (TX), in which live babies have (barely) made it through the traumatic birth but then didn't receive the respiratory support they needed and "mysteriously" died. Yes, in my opinion that's negligence. And in both cases, the midwife was "sentenced" by other CPMs to a few months of probation and they're still out there, delivering babies, not having to tell the new moms anything about their history of negligently causing infant deaths. CPMs should be held to higher training standards than CNMs, since they're out there with no back-up, but instead they're held to much lower standards. Again, moms are free to choose whatever they like, but I'm not sure that "research" into any given CPM will really tell the whole story. "

Thanks for sharing the above info. It sounds scarily similar to what may have happened with the baby in St. Mary's County, MD.

And how can KC claim that the breech delivery was not the cause of the head entrapment in the Alexandria delivery? Without the head as a dilating wedge, that is one of the possible complications of a breech. When the presenting part delivers before the cervix is fully dilated this can lead to head entrapment.

Or was it instead a case of CPD, cephalopelvic disproportion? If so, why was this not picked up on much earlier?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

Not the pp you are replying to but, "intentionally separating Mama's and fathers"==what century are you referring to?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

No, I've said it several times on this thread, and I was saying it again. I keep seeing this thing about mothers who homebirth doing "tons and tons of research." What kind of research? To me, research is reading primary literature about scientific experiments, but I don't think it's being used that way here. The best I can tell, mothers are expected to go to childbirth classes and talk to midwives about how they practice. But if your midwife has never had an infant with respiratory distress and doesn't take the appropriate steps quickly, it's now the mother's fault for not doing enough "research," or it's "well, babies die in the hospital too." I've seen it over and over and over, even here on this thread.

And how is your scare-mongering about hospitals not equally paternalistic and condescending to expectant mothers? I just got home from the PAS conference, where I was learning all I could about the latest studies from many countries and what they mean to practicing pediatricians. Any time a baby dies or has a bad outcome, everything is documented, there is at the very least an M&M where everyone is grilled about what happened and how it can be prevented from happening again. What does Karen Carr have to do when a baby dies, is injured, or has a near miss? Looks to me like she keeps on doing things exactly the same way, then she's "traumatized" when a birth doesn't go exactly like she thinks it should. Explain to me how this "non-evidence based medicine" is somehow superior to that that you think is going on in hospitals.

And if you really want to improve the maternal mortality rate, get prenatal care and healthcare for everyone, and throw more money at research into why women of color have so many more problems during pregnancy than other racial groups.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

Not the pp you are replying to but, "intentionally separating Mama's and fathers"==what century are you referring to?

This happened to a dear friend last year (in Texas, ironically). She wouldn't agree to needless interventions (such as an IV) so they had her husband step out. They then continued to bully her as well as her husband so that he could"talk some sense into her". Thankfully, they are both very capable of standing up to such deplorable tactics and they also knew their rights (they are both lawyers).

People here keep saying that stuff like this doesn't happen (you know..because their own experience was perfect) but it really, truly and amazingly *does* happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

Not the pp you are replying to but, "intentionally separating Mama's and fathers"==what century are you referring to?

This happened to a dear friend last year (in Texas, ironically). She wouldn't agree to needless interventions (such as an IV) so they had her husband step out. They then continued to bully her as well as her husband so that he could"talk some sense into her". Thankfully, they are both very capable of standing up to such deplorable tactics and they also knew their rights (they are both lawyers).

People here keep saying that stuff like this doesn't happen (you know..because their own experience was perfect) but it really, truly and amazingly *does* happen.

An IV is a needless intervention? I guess, until you hemorrhage... Of course, then it's difficult to place the IV, so... Did she try for a heplock, if the IV was too invasive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

OK, so they knew their rights and stood up the system and it worked out for them. It is an imperfect system, yes, but there are checks and balances.

Where are the checks and balances in a home delivery? Especially if your midwife is unlicensed and has no emergency back-up plan?

Not the pp you are replying to but, "intentionally separating Mama's and fathers"==what century are you referring to?

This happened to a dear friend last year (in Texas, ironically). She wouldn't agree to needless interventions (such as an IV) so they had her husband step out. They then continued to bully her as well as her husband so that he could"talk some sense into her". Thankfully, they are both very capable of standing up to such deplorable tactics and they also knew their rights (they are both lawyers).

People here keep saying that stuff like this doesn't happen (you know..because their own experience was perfect) but it really, truly and amazingly *does* happen.

[Anonymous]

Sorry, my reply became embedded in a previous post:

OK, so they knew their rights and stood up the system and it worked out for them. It is an imperfect system, yes, but at least there are checks and balances.

Where are the checks and balances in a home delivery? Especially if your midwife is unlicensed and has no emergency back-up plan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

Btw this Mama here prefers to be called Mama by her children only. To you and to any medical professional, I am their mother, or if you know my first or last name, please call me by such.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You complain of paternalism from a kiss and the use of an innocent term yet you continue to question and doubt the judgment and intellectual ability of Mamas who choose homebirth. Does someone need to flash their JD or the like in order to qualify as mentaly capable? I think you need to do a bit of mirror gazing.

No, I continue to complain about this embedded attitude in the homebirth community that if there's a bad outcome, if the CPM didn't do a good job, then it must be because the mother didn't do enough "research." The mother shouldn't have to do "research" to find out if her CPM is capable or not- they should all be capable, by dint of strict standards. But apparently what is good for the rest of medicine is too strict for CPMs.

No, you specifically questioned a Mama's ability. Now you are just spinning.

I disagree with your assesment of attitudes within the HB community. If anything, I see that pointed towards hospital birthing Mamas.

I have to laugh at the set of standards OBs are "held to". Using non-evidence based "medicine", bullying Mamas, intentionally separating Mamas and fathers in order to separate her from her support, not allowing doulas to the same effect.....having one of the worst maternal death rates amongst industrialized nations. Yeah...great set of standards.

Now that we know that you are affiliated with the medical community, I fully understand your complete lack of trust in a Mama's abilty to think for herself.

No, I've said it several times on this thread, and I was saying it again. I keep seeing this thing about mothers who homebirth doing "tons and tons of research." What kind of research? To me, research is reading primary literature about scientific experiments, but I don't think it's being used that way here. The best I can tell, mothers are expected to go to childbirth classes and talk to midwives about how they practice. But if your midwife has never had an infant with respiratory distress and doesn't take the appropriate steps quickly, it's now the mother's fault for not doing enough "research," or it's "well, babies die in the hospital too." I've seen it over and over and over, even here on this thread.

And how is your scare-mongering about hospitals not equally paternalistic and condescending to expectant mothers? I just got home from the PAS conference, where I was learning all I could about the latest studies from many countries and what they mean to practicing pediatricians. Any time a baby dies or has a bad outcome, everything is documented, there is at the very least an M&M where everyone is grilled about what happened and how it can be prevented from happening again. What does Karen Carr have to do when a baby dies, is injured, or has a near miss? Looks to me like she keeps on doing things exactly the same way, then she's "traumatized" when a birth doesn't go exactly like she thinks it should. Explain to me how this "non-evidence based medicine" is somehow superior to that that you think is going on in hospitals.

And if you really want to improve the maternal mortality rate, get prenatal care and healthcare for everyone, and throw more money at research into why women of color have so many more problems during pregnancy than other racial groups.

Take a class and check out a MW's history? You really need to sit down and just talk to HB Mamas. I can say that mine included getting my hands on every study I could find relating to my specific situatuion. It included reading about as many possible complications that I could find and was the likelyhood that they would happen. It also included extensive research into my rights as a patient and Mother (every Mama entering a hospital should know about EMTALA). I knew my MW's training and stats as well as speaking directly with past clients. Her record with the BOM was clean.

What I find ironic is how uninformed the OBs were WRT up-to-date data (I had to forgo a HB due to prematurity). As a patient, I should not have to continually correct the doctors around me (I was sad to find this in the NICU too).