Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

Nothing her siblings did was as bad as when Tom betrayed her for her dad at the end of season 3.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

I also just think if Shiv wants companionship she undoubtedly has friends, or she could call up Nate, or whatever. Obviously the scope of the show is narrow but the idea that she has no choice but to sit awkwardly in a car with her estranged husband feels a bit limited to me -- I don't think she'd be there if she didn't think it held some interest/opportunity for her.

There was an interesting interview with Jesse Armstrong that I can't remember the origin of now, but where he was talking about Roman and Kendall and how they would move on from this. He said that for Roman, he'll find other ways to occupy his time and this will wind up being kind of a weird interlude in his life where he got really involved in the family business and tried to keep the company after his dad died, but he'll just move on. But that for Kendall this will always be the defining moment of his life and he'll never get past this failure.

My read on Shiv over the course of the show is that while she obviously has major issues, she's more emotionally resilient than the other two and more independent, and that she really did build her own separate life in a way her brothers didn't with her career and even living outside New York. So I tend to think she's unlikely to consign herself to a situation longterm that is miserable. At the moment the show ends, her dad has been dead a little over a weak and she's suffered a humiliating professional blow, but I don't think that means she has no choice but to lock herself into a miserable marriage. Either she'll make that marriage serve her interests or she'll divorce and figure something else out. Unlike Roman, she's not a masochist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

Nothing her siblings did was as bad as when Tom betrayed her for her dad at the end of season 3.

I don't think that's true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

Nothing her siblings did was as bad as when Tom betrayed her for her dad at the end of season 3.

I don't think that's true.

+1, I think this is a myopic take. Also, Shiv and Tom did discuss that betrayal in LA. That's when he tells her that a huge driver for him is never going back to having to worry about money, and that she was withholding from him and keeping him guessing but that Logan offered him something concrete, so he took it. And Shiv seemed to get it and even appreciate his honesty -- she knows that she doesn't give Tom much.

I think the issues is that while they had some reconciliation there, it didn't change her behavior -- at the party they hosted, she was back on her bull$hit joking with Matsson about how Tom was going to get fired, using Tom once again as her whipping boy. And that's what led to the blow up on the balcony. After he'd told her that a central issue in their relationship is the way Shiv always acts like she could get rid of him at any time, she went and did it again in a public way that was personally humiliating to him. And that's why he responds to her pregnancy announcement as he does, and also likely what hardens him enough to accept Matsson's offer even when he knows it will destroy Shiv emotionally.

Shiv and Tom basically deserve each other, and one reason they both keep giving one another more chances is that it helps them excuse their own terrible behavior. It's not a recipe for happiness but it might just be how they operate, and they may feel they both get enough out of it, despite this dynamic, to keep at it. Especially with a kid on the way (poor kid).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

I also think Shiv recognizes that all the Roys are just kind of broken people and she's not enthusiastic about just wallowing in that with them. Plus I'm sure she asks herself if she would ever hang out with anyone of them if they weren't related, and the answer has got to be no. Connor might have a tender spot for Shiv, but he's a lot older and he's deluded and kind of embarrassing. Roman has no scruples and was excited to get in bed with a fascist. Kendall is a recovering addict (maybe soon not to be in recovery anymore) who abandoned his kids and betrayed everyone who ever cared about him to try and grab power. In that context, choosing to go with her husband and father of her child doesn't seem that weird, even if he has said terrible things to her and screwed her out of a job she convinced herself she wanted (but I think realized she probably actually didn't want).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

I'm unconvinced that she is going to "continue to play the game." I think it's intentionally ambiguous. A lot of people seem to think her sitting next to Tom and tepidly offering her hadn't at the end of the episode means she's "gave" him Waystar to keep herself relevant. But I look at what she actually said in the conversation with Kendall and Roman during the board meeting and it feels like she's actually trying to let it all go. To wash her hands of it. And she's said it many times throughout the season -- she wanted the GoJo deal, she wanted out of ATN in particular, she was excited about getting a clean slate and building something new.

I don't think there's a right or wrong interpretation but I don't automatically agree she's signing up for a sham marriage to a man who hates her just to keep her toe in the Waystar waters. I definitely saw her decision to be in that car as having more to do with trying to figure out what to do about her marriage and her baby, than anything to do with Waystar or Tom's role there. I think she really wants him back (she asks for him back at the beginning of the episode!).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

I also just think if Shiv wants companionship she undoubtedly has friends, or she could call up Nate, or whatever. Obviously the scope of the show is narrow but the idea that she has no choice but to sit awkwardly in a car with her estranged husband feels a bit limited to me -- I don't think she'd be there if she didn't think it held some interest/opportunity for her.

There was an interesting interview with Jesse Armstrong that I can't remember the origin of now, but where he was talking about Roman and Kendall and how they would move on from this. He said that for Roman, he'll find other ways to occupy his time and this will wind up being kind of a weird interlude in his life where he got really involved in the family business and tried to keep the company after his dad died, but he'll just move on. But that for Kendall this will always be the defining moment of his life and he'll never get past this failure.

My read on Shiv over the course of the show is that while she obviously has major issues, she's more emotionally resilient than the other two and more independent, and that she really did build her own separate life in a way her brothers didn't with her career and even living outside New York. So I tend to think she's unlikely to consign herself to a situation longterm that is miserable. At the moment the show ends, her dad has been dead a little over a weak and she's suffered a humiliating professional blow, but I don't think that means she has no choice but to lock herself into a miserable marriage. Either she'll make that marriage serve her interests or she'll divorce and figure something else out. Unlike Roman, she's not a masochist.

Armstrong also addressed Shiv, it’s already quoted in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

Nothing her siblings did was as bad as when Tom betrayed her for her dad at the end of season 3.

No way. Are you forgetting that Shiv was totally ok with Tom going to JAIL for her father?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

Cry me a river for Shiv. She was already rich and with the Gojo deal she remains on the board AND gets much richer. She is and will continue to be fine. If she doesn't want to stay married to Tom, she can easily get a divorce (remember they have a prenup that was discussed before they got married). She cal also afford a ton of help to raise the baby. She can do whatever she wants. She has agency here. I think the best decision was to vote for the sale because now she's got even more money and more independence.

I think Tom is also done emotionally with Shiv and something in his feelings died the moment she told him she wanted an open marriage on their wedding night. She flaunted it in his face, even up to the election eve party by having Nate there, was willing to have him go to jail for her father, didn't seem to care that he wasn't going to prison after all, she was just emotionally empty with him. Tom seems to have a sense of duty to their marriage and it probably is now because she's pregnant so he's willing to stay married for the baby. That's the UMC midwestern upbringing in him. Shiv can just bounce whenever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

Nothing her siblings did was as bad as when Tom betrayed her for her dad at the end of season 3.

No way. Are you forgetting that Shiv was totally ok with Tom going to JAIL for her father?

Tom volunteered to go to jail to gain favor with her father. This was after Shiv begged her father to spare Tom from being the scapegoat at the end of season 2.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

I'm unconvinced that she is going to "continue to play the game." I think it's intentionally ambiguous. A lot of people seem to think her sitting next to Tom and tepidly offering her hadn't at the end of the episode means she's "gave" him Waystar to keep herself relevant. But I look at what she actually said in the conversation with Kendall and Roman during the board meeting and it feels like she's actually trying to let it all go. To wash her hands of it. And she's said it many times throughout the season -- she wanted the GoJo deal, she wanted out of ATN in particular, she was excited about getting a clean slate and building something new.

I don't think there's a right or wrong interpretation but I don't automatically agree she's signing up for a sham marriage to a man who hates her just to keep her toe in the Waystar waters. I definitely saw her decision to be in that car as having more to do with trying to figure out what to do about her marriage and her baby, than anything to do with Waystar or Tom's role there. I think she really wants him back (she asks for him back at the beginning of the episode!).

I thought the ending was true to the essence of her character: Shiv always wants to have it both ways, all of the time, in everything. At the end of the day, this keeps her from ever really having anything.

[Anonymous]

I didn't read what the showrunners said about Shiv but in my opinion all three Roys just fell into the same patterns they have for their whole lives.

Kendall got close but couldn't close the deal because his arrogance prevents him from seeing his own weaknesses and causes him to stumble. If he had understood Shiv and approached her as she needed to be approached instead of crowing about being the eldest boy he could have swayed her (IMO).

Roman fell apart when the pressure hit and ran home to a parent to seek what he's never been given.

Shiv looked around at everyone who should love her and saw, correctly, that they all want something from her. That there was not a single person there that thought of her like a full human being. Tom came closest but I don't think that is why she chose. I think she just continued her show long trend of being indecisive, pulled between her desire to break free and her desire to be thought of as the successor. And in that precise moment, flipped towards running away instead of holding on. I think going back to Tom is some combination of wanting to have a family for her kid and also their phone call. She talks about always waiting for the other shoe to drop in every relationship. But with Tom, even with his betrayals, he is honest with her, and he's consistent about his motivations. She doesn't have to wonder, she knows who he is. And I think she would rather be with someone who knows who she is, good and bad, then with someone who she has to hide herself from. And I think she's a masochist trained by her dad to always go crawling back to a man who humiliates her. She probably doesn't even know why she does what she does. A lifetime of training to come pet the dog that bites her. I think that's what Tom finally figured out. To keep her, you have to hurt her.