Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

Roman was pushing his injuries on Kendall to physically feel the pain he was emotionally feeling. Like cutting.

Exactly.

He’s a masochist and needs humiliation and pain. Gerri triggered him seconds before that moment. She used to provide that outlet for him. My husband actually thought Kendall knows that about Roman so was providing it/giving him the pain he needed to recover at that moment.

I’m not sure about that, but it did definitely look like Kendall was pushing his head in hard to his shoulder.

This scene was pretty explicitly clear from the dialogue. Roman, who is pretty twisted, was ok with giving Waystar to Kendall the night before, but became fixated on how well his scar was healing and that sent him down the “why can’t it be me?” Rabbit hole. He needed a visible reason why it couldn’t; Kendall supplied it. They both knew what was going on IMO.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

My take on that scene was that Roman himself was digging his injury into Kendall's forehead. Perhaps trying to feel the pain of it all. That was a very touching and sad scene.

What? No.

Yes. Rewatch.

PP here - I apologize. I just rewatched it myself and saw that it was Kendall who was pushing Roman’s forehead into his shoulder really hard. Not Roman doing it to himself. My bad.

Really? I'm the PP who first posted about this, and that's what I thought (Ken inflicting pain). I rewatched and honestly couldn't tell for sure.

Upon rewatching, I was really surprised to see that Kendall did seem to forcibly be holding Roman’s head into his shoulder… but maybe it was just a very forceful hug from both of them? Because then we see Roman hugging Kendall so hard that his hands and fingers are digging into Kendall’s back. So I don’t know. It’s like a love/hate embrace.
PP

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I thought of the end of Gone Girl <shudder>

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

I'm unconvinced that she is going to "continue to play the game." I think it's intentionally ambiguous. A lot of people seem to think her sitting next to Tom and tepidly offering her hadn't at the end of the episode means she's "gave" him Waystar to keep herself relevant. But I look at what she actually said in the conversation with Kendall and Roman during the board meeting and it feels like she's actually trying to let it all go. To wash her hands of it. And she's said it many times throughout the season -- she wanted the GoJo deal, she wanted out of ATN in particular, she was excited about getting a clean slate and building something new.

I don't think there's a right or wrong interpretation but I don't automatically agree she's signing up for a sham marriage to a man who hates her just to keep her toe in the Waystar waters. I definitely saw her decision to be in that car as having more to do with trying to figure out what to do about her marriage and her baby, than anything to do with Waystar or Tom's role there. I think she really wants him back (she asks for him back at the beginning of the episode!).

I thought the ending was true to the essence of her character: Shiv always wants to have it both ways, all of the time, in everything. At the end of the day, this keeps her from ever really having anything.

Agree, perfectly said. She is the most frustrating of the Roy’s to me because she is the most competent but her flaws and damage still sabotage her.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

I think they were actually doing what was most acceptable/realistic at that point and not specifically cutting her out. It bothered me that the show never really addressed this, but there is no way that she would succeed as a former Democratic strategist becoming the CEO of the parent company of ATN which is essentially Fox News. The audience wouldn’t accept it and the result would be similar to what’s happening with the real Fox News now with Lachlan Murdoch being more in charge and their audience moving to places like NewsMax and OAN because Fox isn’t right-wing enough for them.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

I think they were actually doing what was most acceptable/realistic at that point and not specifically cutting her out. It bothered me that the show never really addressed this, but there is no way that she would succeed as a former Democratic strategist becoming the CEO of the parent company of ATN which is essentially Fox News. The audience wouldn’t accept it and the result would be similar to what’s happening with the real Fox News now with Lachlan Murdoch being more in charge and their audience moving to places like NewsMax and OAN because Fox isn’t right-wing enough for them.

But this is the point and the damage that their father really did. By keeping them all as fish on the hooks, by creating a life long competition, it ensured that they'd never be united. They would never be 'ok' with another one taking over. And even though you are right, it made sense, I mean Kendall was right, it really did make sense for it to be him, even though that made sense, Logan Roy ensured that letting someone else win would always be a poison pill they would be unable to swallow.

Roman was equally as insane a choice, he's completely unpredictable and mercurial, makes decisions on a whim. He is likely a blackmail MAGNET. I feel like while he may have had more practical experience with the actual work then Shiv he is actually far less stable.

And Kendall, honestly, is also not a particularly good choice. He DID kill someone. He was a drug addict like, 2-3 years prior in show time. He maybe tried to commit suicide in the VERY recent past (mom's wedding). He has the grooming and expertise and maybe even the actual cut throat chops but he, just like the others, is plagued with demons that don't make him stronger but make him weaker.

Anyway, while it didn't make sense from a 'who will the board accept' strategy to include Shiv, they all knew there was no future that included Waystar Royco where the sibs would all feel like they were on equal ground. That path did not exist. They had a glimpse of the path where they were equal, the path after a GoJo acquisition where they would start something new, and Kendall and Roman decided no, they wanted to win that race they had been running since childhood. They decided they wanted to win enough to cut her out. So the betrayal didn't happen when they decided it would be Kendall and Roman, the betrayal happened when they decided to sink the deal. But that betrayal was just as bad as what Tom did for sure, perhaps worse, because with Tom Shiv understands that she did not give him anything to feel confident in. She crafted that relationship to be transactional, but with her brothers, and her father, there is always the small part of her that is hoping they actually CARE about her, and they just ate away a little more at that little girl inside her. Tom is actually INCAPABLE of hurting her as deeply as they are.

[Anonymous]

I read a good read on the Shiv/Tom angle. Bascially Shiv has become her mother- a woman dependent on her husband to get ahead. For so long, Shiv held the power and Tom had to tread lightly to keep from pissing her or her family off and getting fired. now Tom is CEO and Shiv realizes in the car ride home, she has to play the supporting role now and stay in Tom's good graces if she wants back into the company power seats.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

I think they were actually doing what was most acceptable/realistic at that point and not specifically cutting her out. It bothered me that the show never really addressed this, but there is no way that she would succeed as a former Democratic strategist becoming the CEO of the parent company of ATN which is essentially Fox News. The audience wouldn’t accept it and the result would be similar to what’s happening with the real Fox News now with Lachlan Murdoch being more in charge and their audience moving to places like NewsMax and OAN because Fox isn’t right-wing enough for them.

Whatever the reason - and I don't agree with your reasoning, but even let's say it's right - they cut her out. She knows she can't trust that if they keep the company, she'll get any of the power, control, or status she wants. This whole last bit was each of them realizing it's not going to be them - then scrambling. Kendall saying there's nothing else for him. Roman crying then heading to a bar. Shiv calculating that if it's not going to be her, it might as well be her husband - and riding off with him; the show's not quite over for her yet, the way it is for her brothers.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

Not to me. People decide for themselves what they are willing to accept in relationships and how to define love. I can't imagine being in a non-monogamous relationship, but some people think that's normal and even preferable. To each their own.

I also wouldn't say he destroyed her relationship with her father -- Logan did that on his own. It would actually be more accurate to say Logan destroyed Shiv's relationship with Tom, or that the money and power plays corrupted all of their relationships with each other. Giving Tom all the agency in that scenario is inaccurate.

And he didn't take her job -- it was never her job. She chose to believe Matsson was going to give it to her but he made no promises and clearly just used her. Yes, it's horrible that Tom winds up getting the thing she wanted. Awful. I would not accept that betrayal from my own husband. But also, unlike Shiv, I wouldn't propose that we open the marriage on our wedding night or kind of blithely accept that my husband might go to jail as a scapegoat for my father's company's crimes.

This relationship doesn't function like a normal marriage. These are the sort of people who "have an arrangement." Like how Logan and Marcia agreed to stay married and Marcia went on a permanent shopping trip to Italy while Logan basically lived with Kerry. But Marcia still loved Logan on some level (as did Kerry). I don't get it, but there it is.

Second all this.

This is the best summary I’ve read so far:

https://apple.news/AdyEcJLw7RcmFEHEyZM386g

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I read a good read on the Shiv/Tom angle. Bascially Shiv has become her mother- a woman dependent on her husband to get ahead. For so long, Shiv held the power and Tom had to tread lightly to keep from pissing her or her family off and getting fired. now Tom is CEO and Shiv realizes in the car ride home, she has to play the supporting role now and stay in Tom's good graces if she wants back into the company power seats.

I can see that about depending on Tom for power, although I’m not totally sure she wants back in ATN. Also Shiv has a billion in her own name, so she’s not as dependent on her man as her mother was.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

Not to me. People decide for themselves what they are willing to accept in relationships and how to define love. I can't imagine being in a non-monogamous relationship, but some people think that's normal and even preferable. To each their own.

I also wouldn't say he destroyed her relationship with her father -- Logan did that on his own. It would actually be more accurate to say Logan destroyed Shiv's relationship with Tom, or that the money and power plays corrupted all of their relationships with each other. Giving Tom all the agency in that scenario is inaccurate.

And he didn't take her job -- it was never her job. She chose to believe Matsson was going to give it to her but he made no promises and clearly just used her. Yes, it's horrible that Tom winds up getting the thing she wanted. Awful. I would not accept that betrayal from my own husband. But also, unlike Shiv, I wouldn't propose that we open the marriage on our wedding night or kind of blithely accept that my husband might go to jail as a scapegoat for my father's company's crimes.

This relationship doesn't function like a normal marriage. These are the sort of people who "have an arrangement." Like how Logan and Marcia agreed to stay married and Marcia went on a permanent shopping trip to Italy while Logan basically lived with Kerry. But Marcia still loved Logan on some level (as did Kerry). I don't get it, but there it is.

Second all this.

This is the best summary I’ve read so far:

https://apple.news/AdyEcJLw7RcmFEHEyZM386g

Oh that is a good summary. Agree on pretty much all points. I really do think people are glossing over Shiv and Roman agreeing at the end that they shouldn't take over Waystar, that it's not what their dad wanted and it's also not what makes sense in any way. I see many people focused on the idea that Shiv betrayed Kendall or that Shiv is capitulating to Tom and I just don't think it's about that at all. It's about Shiv, and then Roman in agreement, realizing that they are fighting for and over something that isn't theirs, was never theirs. Their dad wanted to sell the company. He knew none of them was capable of taking over, he wanted to take it out of their hands. Their mom worked with him to do it.

It just took until the last moment for two of the three kids to accept this hard truth. And Kendall never will, and that's why he's Kendall.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read a good read on the Shiv/Tom angle. Bascially Shiv has become her mother- a woman dependent on her husband to get ahead. For so long, Shiv held the power and Tom had to tread lightly to keep from pissing her or her family off and getting fired. now Tom is CEO and Shiv realizes in the car ride home, she has to play the supporting role now and stay in Tom's good graces if she wants back into the company power seats.

I can see that about depending on Tom for power, although I’m not totally sure she wants back in ATN. Also Shiv has a billion in her own name, so she’s not as dependent on her man as her mother was.

Yeah, I don't see it. Shiv literally says she doesn't think she or her brothers should have the company. I think she has some mommy issues but they are related to how emotionally shut down she is and how that makes her scared of becoming a mom and doing to her kid what her mom did to her. But I don't think she gets in the car with Tom because she's trying to play a supporting role to stay close to power. I actually think she's trying to be supportive of him generally in a last ditch attempt to save their marriage and their family and maybe not repeat a generational cycle. I am skeptical that she will succeed, but I think that's her intent.

Armstrong talked about all the siblings essentially returning to where they started as the series ends. And where did Shiv start? With trying to build a life for herself outside of dad's orbit, but still getting pulled in somehow anyway. And that's where she ends -- she's trying to build a life with Tom and their baby, but now that he's CEO, she's still stuck in the Waystar orbit. I don't think she'll ever be wholly in, though (and doesn't want to be) but I also don't think she'll ever be wholly out.

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

Not to me. People decide for themselves what they are willing to accept in relationships and how to define love. I can't imagine being in a non-monogamous relationship, but some people think that's normal and even preferable. To each their own.

I also wouldn't say he destroyed her relationship with her father -- Logan did that on his own. It would actually be more accurate to say Logan destroyed Shiv's relationship with Tom, or that the money and power plays corrupted all of their relationships with each other. Giving Tom all the agency in that scenario is inaccurate.

And he didn't take her job -- it was never her job. She chose to believe Matsson was going to give it to her but he made no promises and clearly just used her. Yes, it's horrible that Tom winds up getting the thing she wanted. Awful. I would not accept that betrayal from my own husband. But also, unlike Shiv, I wouldn't propose that we open the marriage on our wedding night or kind of blithely accept that my husband might go to jail as a scapegoat for my father's company's crimes.

This relationship doesn't function like a normal marriage. These are the sort of people who "have an arrangement." Like how Logan and Marcia agreed to stay married and Marcia went on a permanent shopping trip to Italy while Logan basically lived with Kerry. But Marcia still loved Logan on some level (as did Kerry). I don't get it, but there it is.

Second all this.

This is the best summary I’ve read so far:

https://apple.news/AdyEcJLw7RcmFEHEyZM386g

Oh that is a good summary. Agree on pretty much all points. I really do think people are glossing over Shiv and Roman agreeing at the end that they shouldn't take over Waystar, that it's not what their dad wanted and it's also not what makes sense in any way. I see many people focused on the idea that Shiv betrayed Kendall or that Shiv is capitulating to Tom and I just don't think it's about that at all. It's about Shiv, and then Roman in agreement, realizing that they are fighting for and over something that isn't theirs, was never theirs. Their dad wanted to sell the company. He knew none of them was capable of taking over, he wanted to take it out of their hands. Their mom worked with him to do it.

It just took until the last moment for two of the three kids to accept this hard truth. And Kendall never will, and that's why he's Kendall.

Agree, well said.

[Anonymous]

I loved the scene in the kitchen. I also loved the nighttime beach scene that came right before it, when Roman and Shiv swam up to the floating dock where Kendall was waiting. After joking around about how they had considered murdering him (which itself was a hilarious discussion) they tell him they have agreed to “anoint” him as CEO, and he reacts with such shock. “Really?,” and “thank you…” and Shiv teases him that it’s okay – “You can smile, b***h!.” Jeremy Strong then breaks into the biggest, happiest smile we have ever seen from him. It was a real “wow” moment, I thought. In that moment, Kendall was genuinely, joyfully happy and it is the only time we ever have seen him that way in the entire series. All of which makes the ending even more tragic!

I also loved how Tom was able, in 30 seconds, to make his case to Mattsen about the mindset he brings to his work at Waystar – basically selling himself as CEO in just a couple of simple sentences. All season, they had led us to believe that Mattsen thought of Tom as a complete joke – and he probably did. I had thought that Tom had sealed his fate by not attending the funeral, but now I realize it was the opposite. And now in just 30 seconds, Tom is able to change Mattsen’s mind, simply by speaking honestly (the honest truth being that he will happily be a figurehead and do whatever he is told). WOW.

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Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

I saw it differently, after the sibling relationship blow up, Shiv had no where to go for emotional support than a man that hates her but is willing to use her for her family name/position. The look on both their faces said it all, not the least bit of happiness on her face as the car pulled away.

I was going to say that Shiv had no good options, but she easily could have slid into the barstool next to Roman and enjoyed her life of being free from the firm. She's always had a decent relationship with both Roman and Connor, so it's not like her fallout with Kendall would make her a family pariah. In fact, Connor will be grateful, because he gets to cash out on his shares, instead of letting Kendall bleed his stock value. She chose to be miserable to continue to play the game.

But Roman screwed her over, too. He and Kendall both did, when they became co-CEOs and cut her out.

I don't know why any of them still want power, when they have so much money and freedom, but I suppose my brain just doesnt work like theirs.

I think they were actually doing what was most acceptable/realistic at that point and not specifically cutting her out. It bothered me that the show never really addressed this, but there is no way that she would succeed as a former Democratic strategist becoming the CEO of the parent company of ATN which is essentially Fox News. The audience wouldn’t accept it and the result would be similar to what’s happening with the real Fox News now with Lachlan Murdoch being more in charge and their audience moving to places like NewsMax and OAN because Fox isn’t right-wing enough for them.

But this is the point and the damage that their father really did. By keeping them all as fish on the hooks, by creating a life long competition, it ensured that they'd never be united. They would never be 'ok' with another one taking over. And even though you are right, it made sense, I mean Kendall was right, it really did make sense for it to be him, even though that made sense, Logan Roy ensured that letting someone else win would always be a poison pill they would be unable to swallow.

Roman was equally as insane a choice, he's completely unpredictable and mercurial, makes decisions on a whim. He is likely a blackmail MAGNET. I feel like while he may have had more practical experience with the actual work then Shiv he is actually far less stable.

And Kendall, honestly, is also not a particularly good choice. He DID kill someone. He was a drug addict like, 2-3 years prior in show time. He maybe tried to commit suicide in the VERY recent past (mom's wedding). He has the grooming and expertise and maybe even the actual cut throat chops but he, just like the others, is plagued with demons that don't make him stronger but make him weaker.

Anyway, while it didn't make sense from a 'who will the board accept' strategy to include Shiv, they all knew there was no future that included Waystar Royco where the sibs would all feel like they were on equal ground. That path did not exist. They had a glimpse of the path where they were equal, the path after a GoJo acquisition where they would start something new, and Kendall and Roman decided no, they wanted to win that race they had been running since childhood. They decided they wanted to win enough to cut her out. So the betrayal didn't happen when they decided it would be Kendall and Roman, the betrayal happened when they decided to sink the deal. But that betrayal was just as bad as what Tom did for sure, perhaps worse, because with Tom Shiv understands that she did not give him anything to feel confident in. She crafted that relationship to be transactional, but with her brothers, and her father, there is always the small part of her that is hoping they actually CARE about her, and they just ate away a little more at that little girl inside her. Tom is actually INCAPABLE of hurting her as deeply as they are.

I don’t really agree with this, they didn’t tell her as soon as they decided to sink the deal but they did tell her fairly quickly. At which point, she was already working behind the scenes with Mattson, which she never told them. After the Caribbean op, Ken offered her ATN.