Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

[Anonymous]

PSA… none of the characters are likeable and that is why this series is genius.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On the phone, Shiv made the case to Tom as to why Tom and Shiv should give their relationship a chance. (yeah the reasons weren't great, but after all the rambling, she offered her real offer, 'a real relationship.'

That was when she thought she was going to be the head.

So now Tom's the head, but he heard all her business reasons for the relatinship and her underlying plea, and add to that the pregnancy. Since I think he always/or used to love her, in retrospect it's not surprising that he (literally) offered her his hand.

I agree with this. She was proposing a kind of hybrid business/personal arrangement that is premised on equal parts attraction (no question they are physically attracted to each other), family, and business/money. It was a practical proposal.

I think he's offering her the same deal. And if their relationship is always at least one-third business/money, then there's an argument that his decision to accept Matsson's offer isn't even a real betrayal. Because Matsson had already made it clear he wasn't going with Shiv. Sure, Tom could have rejected his offer out of solidarity, but does that make sense if your relationship is partly a business arrangement? Because Matsson's offer was enormously beneficial for Tom's career.

I think there is an alternate storyline where Tom could have told Shiv about his conversation with Matsson and she would still have been furious, but not necessarily at Tom, and where they would have decided ultimately that it made sense for Tom to accept it. I think that's essentially what they are both proposing, but unclear whether it could actually work because they are both prone to jealousy and competition. But that's what they are aiming for.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

She attracts powerful men. Tom will continue to be an empty suit like Karl and Frank, and when his tenure as Waystar CEO comes to an end, her name will continue to get his foot in the door. It sounded like while Mattson didn't want Shiv to be CEO, she was a part of the deal for Tom getting it, because he wanted to sleep with her.

Karl and Frank aren't empty suits. They simply have entirely different, and less prominent positions in the company.

As far as Matsson wanting to sleep with Shiv, maybe that's actually true, maybe not. The point of that exchange was to see how Tom would react.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

Not to me. People decide for themselves what they are willing to accept in relationships and how to define love. I can't imagine being in a non-monogamous relationship, but some people think that's normal and even preferable. To each their own.

I also wouldn't say he destroyed her relationship with her father -- Logan did that on his own. It would actually be more accurate to say Logan destroyed Shiv's relationship with Tom, or that the money and power plays corrupted all of their relationships with each other. Giving Tom all the agency in that scenario is inaccurate.

And he didn't take her job -- it was never her job. She chose to believe Matsson was going to give it to her but he made no promises and clearly just used her. Yes, it's horrible that Tom winds up getting the thing she wanted. Awful. I would not accept that betrayal from my own husband. But also, unlike Shiv, I wouldn't propose that we open the marriage on our wedding night or kind of blithely accept that my husband might go to jail as a scapegoat for my father's company's crimes.

This relationship doesn't function like a normal marriage. These are the sort of people who "have an arrangement." Like how Logan and Marcia agreed to stay married and Marcia went on a permanent shopping trip to Italy while Logan basically lived with Kerry. But Marcia still loved Logan on some level (as did Kerry). I don't get it, but there it is.

[Anonymous]

I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Tom's compensation as CEO is high, but not the same as the amount that she will inherit. She also has access to rich and powerful people that could be useful to Tom in the future.

But also, she is carrying his child. It's hinted that Tom grew up in a normal healthy midwestern family. He's not going to abandon his biological offspring, especially to be raised by Shiv and her dysfunction.

Tom has had one interaction other than with Shiv regarding the pregnancy - with Caroline, Shiv's mother. She congratulates him and he says (pretty sincerely), "Thank you. It would be a dram come true if it wasn't such an effing disaster." Tom may be hurt by Shiv. He may hate her a little, or a lot. But in the end, he wants a family with her and he wants to make it work. I think he's just operating largely by her rules now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was Kendall hurting Roman's injuries while "hugging" him? Roman looked like he was going to puke in the board meeting. The dysfunction and toxicity, wow.

Roman was pushing his injuries on Kendall to physically feel the pain he was emotionally feeling. Like cutting.

Exactly.

He’s a masochist and needs humiliation and pain. Gerri triggered him seconds before that moment. She used to provide that outlet for him. My husband actually thought Kendall knows that about Roman so was providing it/giving him the pain he needed to recover at that moment.

I’m not sure about that, but it did definitely look like Kendall was pushing his head in hard to his shoulder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

She attracts powerful men. Tom will continue to be an empty suit like Karl and Frank, and when his tenure as Waystar CEO comes to an end, her name will continue to get his foot in the door. It sounded like while Mattson didn't want Shiv to be CEO, she was a part of the deal for Tom getting it, because he wanted to sleep with her.

When Mattson said he wanted to eff Shiv, I thought he was referring to not giving her the top job although he knows she expects it.

Also, Mattson is so capricious he could get rid of Tom at any moment, and Tom knows it. So he may want to stick near Shiv and her money as insurance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PSA… none of the characters are likeable and that is why this series is genius.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really wonder about the state of some people’s marriages if they are optimistic about the shiv/Tom relationship. It’s as broken and dysfunctional as her relationship with her biological family.

The last shot of Shiv and Tom indicate that they are at least going to try and give it a go, which is why people are speculating about how their marriage could functionally work under these circumstances. No one is looking at the marriage aspirationally. But plenty of people have marriages of conveniences or where it seems like it shouldn't work but where the interests of both parties align in a way to make it make sense. I think of the Clintons' marriage as an obvious example. Would I want it? Nope. But I actually think they do love each other and that they have made a weird arrangement that makes the marriage a good deal for both of them even though it would be unacceptable for most normal people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

She attracts powerful men. Tom will continue to be an empty suit like Karl and Frank, and when his tenure as Waystar CEO comes to an end, her name will continue to get his foot in the door. It sounded like while Mattson didn't want Shiv to be CEO, she was a part of the deal for Tom getting it, because he wanted to sleep with her.

When Mattson said he wanted to eff Shiv, I thought he was referring to not giving her the top job although he knows she expects it.

Also, Mattson is so capricious he could get rid of Tom at any moment, and Tom knows it. So he may want to stick near Shiv and her money as insurance.

No, Matsson was quite clearly saying he wanted to have sex with Shiv and that they had sexual chemistry. Eh was not just using it as a euphemism for screwing her over -- he was testing Tom to see if he'd be bothered by it or go after Matsson, and Tom passed the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

But also this way she has time to process the news and flip to what will be most beneficial to her. She's already seen that Kendall is willing to screw her over at the drop of her hat - and I think she accurately judged that she would be in a better position with Tom in charge. I think Tom knew there was at least a good chance she'd see it that way, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if in some twisted way, Shiv thinks that voting for the deal so that Tom can become CEO might even the playing field in their marriage in a way that might make it almost functional. When their relationship started, Shiv had all the power because she had all the money, and Tom has always had to put up with abuse and disloyalty from her in order to stay in the family and maintain access to the lifestyle he wants.

But even though he's just a figurehead CEO, it's the most real power he's had in his life. He's going to get a big salary, stock options, and he'll have a ton of social power because he's now the US "face" of Waystar/GoJo. He now has real leverage in their relationship, which he's never had before. Shiv still has her billions (more than before thanks to the sale) and all the trappings of being a 1%er -- she knows all the right people and can get access to all the right places. In theory, at least, this move could allow them to operate as something akin to equals. They already have a weird power dynamic where they are both somewhat abusive of the other, maybe maintaining the tension of them both having leverage will help make that work.

Not saying Shiv's a romantic here -- I think she ultimately made a practical choice both for the company and herself. But the shot of her and Tom in the car makes me wonder if she's choosing that dynamic on purpose. Unlike her mom, she comes to the table with a lot of power, so it's not like she's signing up to be the little woman here. She can walk away any time and she doesn't need to ask Tom for anything. She's better off in a divorce now than before the GoJo deal because now she won't have to pay Tom support of any kind, he'll be too rich to justify it.

Interesting perspective. It did seem she was more interested in trying to salvage the relationship once she became pregnant.

Agree. In one scene she's asking Tom if he thinks there's anything left and he's the one saying he doesn't think so. But at the very end he reaches out his hand to her.

For her, the pregnancy could be one of several motives, among other motives like Kendall making a terrible CEO.

I wonder if Shiv and Tom take ACN in a more progressive direction. We'll never know....

I agree Shiv's decision was complicated, and did not come down to one simplistic reason.

She could either be married to the father of her baby with additional billions of dollars and freedom to do as she pleases. Or fighting with her brothers for power when she knows they all aren’t any good at running a business. Seems like an easy choice for Shiv.

The siblings have backstabbed each other many times. They will come back from this at some point.

I don't think Kendall will ever get over it. He's always ready to backstab but never takes any accountability, ever. As one PP said, he saw this as his birthright and sincerely believed he was entitled to it. Shiv needs him for exactly nothing, however. She and Roman will make peace, because he actually gets it. Kendall will continue on as the same self-centered, self-pitying person he's always been, which is why he will inevitably be alone.

DP. I do wonder if Kendall and Shiv will reconcile, though. I never thought they would after Shiv wrote that public letter about Kendall a few seasons ago. I thought for sure that was it. Yet they did reconcile. I think over time, they will again.

Hard to imagine his ever getting over this particular betrayal, but it's a nice thought!

And yet he did get over her previous betrayal - publishing a letter detailing his drug addiction, instability, and mental health. Her own brother.

As bad as that was, singlehandedly ensuring he lost the keys to the kingdom forever is a different order of magnitude. The show runner said this moment would be the defining one of his life.

Agree, not sure why someone keeps grasping for a happy ending. There is no coming back for Ken and Shiv, and even with Tom, she will always know, deep done, he hates her. What Tom her on the balcony was far worse than anything anyone else did to Shiv because he meant the ugly words he used to describe her.

Tom is confusing to me. Back in seasons 1 and 2, he seemed like he legitimately loved Shiv. He was just this goofy midwestern guy who thought he and Shiv were going to be this nice, monogamous supportive couple.

At the same time, he was such a jerk to Greg in season 1. So maybe he never was so great.

I feel like when looking at his relationship with Shiv, she wronged him first (cheating on him) and then it just derailed into a toxic mess where they repeatedly screw each other over.

+1
I actually think, even through everything, he does still love her. Maybe not in the way he did at first, but I think he cares about her. Especially since she's having his child. Yes, he told her that she would be a horrible mother, but I think he was just lashing out with the most hurtful things he could come up with at the time. He wouldn't have driven off with her in the end if there wasn't something still there. Same with her. A toxic relationship for sure, but I do think they still "love" each other.

Nope, he clearly meant every word he said on the balcony. He thinks so little of her, he thought she made up being pregnant. The end of marriage was his betraying the kids’ plans to Logan at the end of season 3.

In that case why is he still with her? What's in it for him? He got her job - and she still has $, but now he has $, too.

I think he loves her, and sees her for who she is. She might now see herself for who she is, too.

Shiv would still be a major asset to Tom, especially in terms of social legitimacy. And her money would help him, too - he's not a billionaire yet and I would assume Matsson will try to squeeze him on salary and stock options because that's how Matsson runs companies -- he's all about lean and mean so he gets to keep all the profits.

Tom's always been an outsider in that world and he hates it, a major reason he worked so hard on his career is the hope that it would one day legitimize him in Shiv's world. Well now he has that legitimizing job, but if he loses Shiv it could still undermine his ability to move effortlessly in that world, especially if he doesn't have the "f**k you" money it takes to move in those circles easily.

But I also do think he loves her on some level. He can be very tender and kind with her. He can also be cruel and cutting. She is almost never tender with him. Real question as to what their dynamic would be if they do in fact stay together and co-parent. I think realistically it will implode because she won't be able to resist baiting and poking at him, and with his newfound legitimacy, he will ultimately not be willing to take it anymore. But who knows. Maybe the combination of her dad's death, motherhood, and finally giving up on any dream of succeeding her dad will unlock something in Shiv we haven't seen before. People don't change easily but they do sometimes change, and becoming a parent and losing a parent are just the sort of crucibles that sometimes spur that kind of change.

He said he was mostly attracted to her money earlier this season. I believe he meant every word he said in the balcony scene. And he just took the job she thought was hers without a moment’s hesitation. Whatever love he had for her prior on the early seasons is long gone.

It's inaccurate to say that he said he was "mostly" attracted to her money, as opposed to her other qualities. He was just admitting that the money obviously played a role and was hugely appealing to him, as someone who had worried about money every day of his life before them. Plus he was acknowledging that Shiv's money is inextricably tied to everything about her. If he's attracted to Shiv's confidence, part of that is just money. If he's attracted to the way she speaks, her education, or her interests, money is part of all of that. The idea that you could love a billionaire on totally separate terms from their money is ridiculous. At that level, money shapes you.

I think he was honest in the balcony scene but I also think he was honest when he expressed tenderness towards her about the pregnancy at her dad's funeral, or when he reminisces about how they met. I think their relationship is messed up but also complex. Also, having been through it, I think it takes a remarkably hard hearted person to not feel love for someone who is carrying your baby. There is something primal about that.

He destroyed her relationship with her father and just took her job. That isn’t love.

I think the fact he told her in advance it was going to be him as the next CEO shows he still loves her. He could have let her find out along with everyone else, which would have been much more shocking and embarrassing for her.

I'd have to rewatch that scene. I'm not sure how easily he gives that info up? I seem to recall that he first asks her who she thinks Matsson will pick since it's not her, and she suggests a few people, and THEN he tells her? Which is weasel-y.

(And I'm one of the posters who thinks he actually does still love her on some level -- but I don't think he was acting loving in that moment)