Ellen Page announced new identity as Elliott Page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have many waves ions about the broader issue of what it means when people born and assigned the female gender at birth this I they can no longer identify as a woman because they don’t present as femme. Or vice versa. A dude can’t wear a dress. I thought the whole point of gender as a social construct was that we could be free to be you and me as we see fit. For example, where are all the butch lesbians? In my youth I hung with many. Now it seems the young ones who would’ve been “butch” in the 90s are just claiming FTM.
I guess overall to me it seems that frequently it actually pigeonholes gender stereotypes more when people feel that because they don’t represent a mainstream expression of gender they must somehow be transgender. I’m not trying to be trans exclusionary. I don’t actually GAF what anyone wants to identify as, I’ll call you what you want, but I just can’t get past the irony of how much of this actually perpetuates harmful gender stereotypes while trying to be free of them.

I went to Smith in the early aughts, so I know all about butch lesbians. I don't think the "disappearance" of them is that complicated, it's just society evolving. You think a butch lesbian now being transgender is pigeonholing because you are picturing the more limited, "old" view of what transgender meant (examples like say Caitlyn Jenner). When in reality the modern label of transgender is meant to be more inclusive, more the Eliot Page way of being more "non-binary" and "pansexual" and physically looking and dressing like either or.

It's as if a former butch lesbian saying they are now transgender is not saying, "I'm a woman becoming a man." But rather, "transgender encompasses all of these "non-traditional" presentations." I can be a FTM in 2020 without growing out my facial year, without binding my breasts. Dressing more traditionally male can be "enough" to be transgender in 2020.

Excellent and informative post, thank you. May I ask another question? It's going to sound stupid, but this is one of the things I am having trouble wrapping my mind around. The question involves the present trans identity versus the person we knew in the past as a non-trans person. If an adult declares himself/herself/theirself as transgender, whether that is the traditional or non-traditional presentation, does that have any uniform meaning in terms of their life up until that point? In reading about "deadnaming" and thinking about the traditional understanding of a Caitlyn Jenner model of a trans person, prior to transitioning, the trans person was living a life in pain, constrained by a gender assignment that did not match their true selves. But is that always true? Using Elliot as an example, was Elliot always Elliot? Did Elliot star in Juno because that is who Ellen really was?

It is easy for any normal, decent person to treat a trans person respectfully in the present. My struggle is processing a transgender identity in connection with past associations with the person before transition. I hope this isn't offensive, because it is not meant to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes so much sense. Good on him.

Transgender?

Yes. I wasn’t expecting Elliott, but it helps explain Ellen more fully to me. I’ve always felt like something was being held back. Maybe it’s this?

+1, this makes complete sense to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the wide-eyed responses here are just wild. If you can read at an 8th grade level or name all the Kardashians, you sure as hell have the mental capacity to comprehend gender identity.

To pretend otherwise is just willful ignorance.

The people on this thread asking questions are not people who give a fig about the Kardashians.

The truth is most of this gender stuff makes little sense. You are born with a biological sex. It is based on your chromosomes. What does it mean to be a man or a woman beyond that? What does it mean to say you know you are a different gender than what your chromosomes indicate? Separate from biological sex most ways we define gender are a bunch of made up bullshit that varies from culture to culture. People who pretend this is cut and dried are full of it.

The way I see it is that everything else in nature is a spectrum and we are now realizing that gender and sexuality are also on a spectrum.

Gender and sexuality are on a spectrum. ITA! But, biology isn’t. Biology is objective. I would like to know why the phrase “sex assigned at birth” is used instead of “biological sex.”

I just find it difficult to pretend biology doesn’t exist. Biology makes you physically a man or a woman...for the vast majority of people (recognizing the small percentage of biological abnormalities).

A think I agree with a PP who thinks the idea of gender shouldn’t exist. You are biologically what you are (man or woman), but you live as you feel, whether that be masculine, feminine, or a fun mix of both.

I agree. Gender is a social construct that isn’t really real. I’ll call someone whatever name they want, use whatever pronouns they want, will fight discrimination, etc, but deep inside I know the only thing that makes me a woman is the way I was socialized due to my biology. In some circles this makes me TERF scum or something, but it’s the only thing that really makes sense.

Thank you for agreeing! It’s just...biology exists, and it’s crazy to pretend it doesn’t. That said, I will always treat people with respect and call them as they wish.

We are learning that biology isn’t really binary. There are people who are X, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and probably more. So while I personally get frustrated with the drama surrounding announcements like this, it is true that there are many of us walking around who simply are not binary XX and XY and that has to have its effects on the individuals who are different.

The greater DNA testing grows, the more we learn that we almost all have genetic and chromosomal variations of all sorts that affect us on a spectrum.

I appreciate posts like yours that give a bit more detail behind the biological support of being transgender. Thank you! I will look further into this.

[PP accused of not being beyond kindergarten-level biology class]

[Anonymous]

There's an impressive level of wilful, dogmatic denial about biology on here. It's sad. Especially as I thought the Democrats were supposed to be the party of science. This is the modern equivalent of the religious right and their rejection of evolution and insistence on creative or intelligent design as scientifically real. Only this time it's coming from the progressive left.

[Anonymous]

Not an actor that I particularly follow or am interested in, but, like I would with any other person, wish Elliott the best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious what they will do with the next season of umbrella academy. Recast the character? Rewrite the character as a man or as trans? Have Eliot play female? I like the show so I hope they work it out.

She dresses like a teenage boy in the Umbrella Academy already. They’ll just keep that going. Maybe switch the name from Vanessa to Vander.

I thought the characters name was Vanya?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I went to Smith in the early aughts, so I know all about butch lesbians. I don't think the "disappearance" of them is that complicated, it's just society evolving. You think a butch lesbian now being transgender is pigeonholing because you are picturing the more limited, "old" view of what transgender meant (examples like say Caitlyn Jenner). When in reality the modern label of transgender is meant to be more inclusive, more the Eliot Page way of being more "non-binary" and "pansexual" and physically looking and dressing like either or.

It's as if a former butch lesbian saying they are now transgender is not saying, "I'm a woman becoming a man." But rather, "transgender encompasses all of these "non-traditional" presentations." I can be a FTM in 2020 without growing out my facial year, without binding my breasts. Dressing more traditionally male can be "enough" to be transgender in 2020.

Excellent and informative post, thank you. May I ask another question? It's going to sound stupid, but this is one of the things I am having trouble wrapping my mind around. The question involves the present trans identity versus the person we knew in the past as a non-trans person. If an adult declares himself/herself/theirself as transgender, whether that is the traditional or non-traditional presentation, does that have any uniform meaning in terms of their life up until that point? In reading about "deadnaming" and thinking about the traditional understanding of a Caitlyn Jenner model of a trans person, prior to transitioning, the trans person was living a life in pain, constrained by a gender assignment that did not match their true selves. But is that always true? Using Elliot as an example, was Elliot always Elliot? Did Elliot star in Juno because that is who Ellen really was?

It is easy for any normal, decent person to treat a trans person respectfully in the present. My struggle is processing a transgender identity in connection with past associations with the person before transition. I hope this isn't offensive, because it is not meant to be.

You quoted me so I want to reply so you don't feel ignored, but I'm a cis hetero woman so I don't think I'm the right one to answer your question. From my understanding on the outside though, I'd say that yes Elliot starred in Juno because essentially who Elliot is now is who he always was, just with a different name/outward identity. Remember there is the added nuance that the actor in Juno was, well, acting. I don't think the concept of a name being dead means the person wants their past life to be dead too? That said, I'd imagine there are some people who do want a concrete separation though? Particularly if their former identity was associated with trauma? I think like most things in this discussion, there isn't a black and white answer.

I think the reconciliation of a past vs. present person is a really interesting conversation, not a stupid question at all. I think about myself; let's say my older sister transitioned to a male, would I feel like I lost my childhood sister or would I think of him the same way I'd think of my sister if she was blonde for 30 years and then went brunette? I consider myself pretty liberal and accepting, but it's easier to accept a theoretical situation than to deal with the reality when it happens in your life. I'm sure there are lots of books written by siblings in that exact situation. Or parents.

I hope someone with direct experience can chime in to answer your question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Excellent and informative post, thank you. May I ask another question? It's going to sound stupid, but this is one of the things I am having trouble wrapping my mind around. The question involves the present trans identity versus the person we knew in the past as a non-trans person. If an adult declares himself/herself/theirself as transgender, whether that is the traditional or non-traditional presentation, does that have any uniform meaning in terms of their life up until that point? In reading about "deadnaming" and thinking about the traditional understanding of a Caitlyn Jenner model of a trans person, prior to transitioning, the trans person was living a life in pain, constrained by a gender assignment that did not match their true selves. But is that always true? Using Elliot as an example, was Elliot always Elliot? Did Elliot star in Juno because that is who Ellen really was?

It is easy for any normal, decent person to treat a trans person respectfully in the present. My struggle is processing a transgender identity in connection with past associations with the person before transition. I hope this isn't offensive, because it is not meant to be.

You quoted me so I want to reply so you don't feel ignored, but I'm a cis hetero woman so I don't think I'm the right one to answer your question. From my understanding on the outside though, I'd say that yes Elliot starred in Juno because essentially who Elliot is now is who he always was, just with a different name/outward identity. Remember there is the added nuance that the actor in Juno was, well, acting. I don't think the concept of a name being dead means the person wants their past life to be dead too? That said, I'd imagine there are some people who do want a concrete separation though? Particularly if their former identity was associated with trauma? I think like most things in this discussion, there isn't a black and white answer.

I think the reconciliation of a past vs. present person is a really interesting conversation, not a stupid question at all. I think about myself; let's say my older sister transitioned to a male, would I feel like I lost my childhood sister or would I think of him the same way I'd think of my sister if she was blonde for 30 years and then went brunette? I consider myself pretty liberal and accepting, but it's easier to accept a theoretical situation than to deal with the reality when it happens in your life. I'm sure there are lots of books written by siblings in that exact situation. Or parents.

I hope someone with direct experience can chime in to answer your question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't get what it means to identify female or male (if someone isn't talking about body parts)? Are there aspects to life that are inherently female or inherently male aside from biology?

Of course there are. They have been freaking legally enshrined around the globe in different ways since the dawn of time, even.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

I don’t think people are jealous of the attention... I think they are tired of being condescended to about not keeping up with the “right” terminology, being called names for asking questions, being accused of not being woke enough, being told they should be up to date on all of this but “look it up; it’s not my job to educate you.” I agree with the first part of your post, though.

Like so many things, any hint of error can be taken as condescension from another. It’s an internal problem aimed outwardly.

Yeah, maybe you are right. I think all of these folks who are DCUMers might want to take a good, hard look at ways they are likely super condescending to others in the world who are less worldly, educated, etc. They are not used to being the butt of it but rather at the top of the heap of superiority and smugness. But they don't have a leg to stand on for not liking being talked down to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

I don’t think people are jealous of the attention... I think they are tired of being condescended to about not keeping up with the “right” terminology, being called names for asking questions, being accused of not being woke enough, being told they should be up to date on all of this but “look it up; it’s not my job to educate you.” I agree with the first part of your post, though.

Like so many things, any hint of error can be taken as condescension from another. It’s an internal problem aimed outwardly.

Yeah, maybe you are right. I think all of these folks who are DCUMers might want to take a good, hard look at ways they are likely super condescending to others in the world who are less worldly, educated, etc. They are not used to being the butt of it but rather at the top of the heap of superiority and smugness. But they don't have a leg to stand on for not liking being talked down to.

Oh no. I meant more that if someone takes time to explain something and your previous thinking was in error or from a less informed place it doesn’t mean that person is being condescending. Or even short with you. change can be really uncomfortable. Being more informed and explaining things does imply tone. That’s the internal bit. I feel pretty terrible when I had a long assumption and I’ve been corrected. The difference is I try to identify my part in that and not reject the person explaining things.

[Anonymous]

That was supposed to read does not imply tone.


Basically try and synthesize new information instead of being offended by the delivery. Reading something online it’s filtered through your experience not necessarily the way someone is writing. Unless they’re a really gifted communicator, which most of us arenot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Excellent and informative post, thank you. May I ask another question? It's going to sound stupid, but this is one of the things I am having trouble wrapping my mind around. The question involves the present trans identity versus the person we knew in the past as a non-trans person. If an adult declares himself/herself/theirself as transgender, whether that is the traditional or non-traditional presentation, does that have any uniform meaning in terms of their life up until that point? In reading about "deadnaming" and thinking about the traditional understanding of a Caitlyn Jenner model of a trans person, prior to transitioning, the trans person was living a life in pain, constrained by a gender assignment that did not match their true selves. But is that always true? Using Elliot as an example, was Elliot always Elliot? Did Elliot star in Juno because that is who Ellen really was?

It is easy for any normal, decent person to treat a trans person respectfully in the present. My struggle is processing a transgender identity in connection with past associations with the person before transition. I hope this isn't offensive, because it is not meant to be.

You quoted me so I want to reply so you don't feel ignored, but I'm a cis hetero woman so I don't think I'm the right one to answer your question. From my understanding on the outside though, I'd say that yes Elliot starred in Juno because essentially who Elliot is now is who he always was, just with a different name/outward identity. Remember there is the added nuance that the actor in Juno was, well, acting. I don't think the concept of a name being dead means the person wants their past life to be dead too? That said, I'd imagine there are some people who do want a concrete separation though? Particularly if their former identity was associated with trauma? I think like most things in this discussion, there isn't a black and white answer.

I think the reconciliation of a past vs. present person is a really interesting conversation, not a stupid question at all. I think about myself; let's say my older sister transitioned to a male, would I feel like I lost my childhood sister or would I think of him the same way I'd think of my sister if she was blonde for 30 years and then went brunette? I consider myself pretty liberal and accepting, but it's easier to accept a theoretical situation than to deal with the reality when it happens in your life. I'm sure there are lots of books written by siblings in that exact situation. Or parents.

I hope someone with direct experience can chime in to answer your question.

Thank you so much for responding. Yes, you nailed my question in terms of how one would process the reality. While typing my question, the attorney in me was was thinking that my actual question was what, if any retroactive, effect does a transition have?

I have friends who have dealt with some of these issues with their children, and it is challenging. I love my children fiercely and always will. If my daughter were to transition, I would love him/them no less than I do today. That is a given. Still, there would be a part of me that would have to reconcile my current relationship with him/them post-transition with the reality that I gave birth to and raised a person I believed to be a daughter by virtue of the gender assigned at birth. We could be mother and son, but it would take some work on my part to process what came before, given that our relationship was established and cultivated through a gender lens, with us as mother and daughter sharing our common experiences as women. We all need to examine our biases, misunderstandings, and selfish interests or concerns in order to truly accept and support our loved ones. That's why I ask questions.

[Anonymous]

We are learning that biology isn’t really binary. There are people who are X, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and probably more. So while I personally get frustrated with the drama surrounding announcements like this, it is true that there are many of us walking around who simply are not binary XX and XY and that has to have its effects on the individuals who are different.

The greater DNA testing grows, the more we learn that we almost all have genetic and chromosomal variations of all sorts that affect us on a spectrum.

+1, but I would add that we're only beginning to understand not only genetic and chromosomal variations, but also hormonal variations. There is so. so. much. that we don't know about how the particular wash of hormones a fetus is exposed to can impact sex and gender identity.

There are also a ton of "correlations" that have not been fully explored, like why there seem to be a lot of FAAB individuals who are both trans and have PCOS, or why there are more trans Aspies than cis Aspies.

It's not simple, and there are still a lot of unknowns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

We are learning that biology isn’t really binary. There are people who are X, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and probably more. So while I personally get frustrated with the drama surrounding announcements like this, it is true that there are many of us walking around who simply are not binary XX and XY and that has to have its effects on the individuals who are different.

The greater DNA testing grows, the more we learn that we almost all have genetic and chromosomal variations of all sorts that affect us on a spectrum.

+1, but I would add that we're only beginning to understand not only genetic and chromosomal variations, but also hormonal variations. There is so. so. much. that we don't know about how the particular wash of hormones a fetus is exposed to can impact sex and gender identity.

There are also a ton of "correlations" that have not been fully explored, like why there seem to be a lot of FAAB individuals who are both trans and have PCOS, or why there are more trans Aspies than cis Aspies.

It's not simple, and there are still a lot of unknowns.

PP here. I worded that wrong. There are not more trans Aspies than cis Aspies. There are a higher percentage of trans Aspies when taken against the total Aspie population than there are cis NTs when taken against the whole NT population. Sorry about that.