Ellen Page announced new identity as Elliott Page

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biology exists, no one is arguing that.

What people seem to oddly conflate is the idea that "gender is a social construct" means that "gender isn't real"... its VERY real. Social constructs are real, they have a basis in culture vs. science but that doesn't mean they aren't real. The language that "gender doesn't exist" somehow got tagged to people who advocate for trans rights, when that is obviously not true. Its not purely binary and never has been but it certainly exists- even though the roles and meanings of those gender terms are entirely built by the culture they are in.

Then why use “sex assigned at birth” instead of “biological sex”? Biologically we are male or female (anomalies excluded), do you agree?

The bolded is why. Sex assigned at birth is used because doctors/nurses/midwives can only assign sex by sight at birth- they aren't pricking a finger to get blood to check on the DNA of each child, and thus they can't say if they are one of those in the statistical small minority (.05-1.5% of population has intersex traits in some fashion per Amnesty International recent studies). You keep wanting to say anomalies, but to keep in perspective only about 1-2% of the population has red hair. So that's why language evolves, medical professionals know they can only assign the sex at birth by sight not make a biological determination of say XXY

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ellen/Elliott is the actress who starred in Juno, The Umbrella Academy and Inception.

Great. Finally he can wear short hair and pants.

who says women can't do both? Or are you joking?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biology exists, no one is arguing that.

What people seem to oddly conflate is the idea that "gender is a social construct" means that "gender isn't real"... its VERY real. Social constructs are real, they have a basis in culture vs. science but that doesn't mean they aren't real. The language that "gender doesn't exist" somehow got tagged to people who advocate for trans rights, when that is obviously not true. Its not purely binary and never has been but it certainly exists- even though the roles and meanings of those gender terms are entirely built by the culture they are in.

Then why use “sex assigned at birth” instead of “biological sex”? Biologically we are male or female (anomalies excluded), do you agree?

I don't think people are saying "sex assigned at birth" that much, are they? Isn't gender, not sex the issue? Either way, I think this poster's (quoted below) words best describe why the "assigned at birth" terminology is important. It validates the idea that to the person, they didn't change their gender by choice, it was always the "right" gender to them and the only reason they were previously the other gender was because it was "assigned" to them, not their active choice.

Anonymous wrote:
There are probably people who know more about this than me, but I think some of this is probably rooted in verbiage around gay people as well. Homophobes were up our ass about being gay as being a choice we could simply un-make, and that caused us a lot of grief over a couple of decades. Hence, the "born this way" argument (see Lady Gaga, et al.). I think this translated to the trans community a bit in that ensuring the language that is used follows the experiences that people have.

Again: being assigned a gender at birth is fine, but some people realize that gender doesn't fit. They don't think they've "changed" but that the gender that was assigned due to genitals doesn't match their lived experience. So this is the verbiage that the trans community uses that best fits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's denial of basic biology to pretend gender is a social construct or that it exists on a spectrum. Gender reflects the biology. To pretend it was invented is purely rubbish. There are attributes given to the two genders that have been reinforced by culture over human history and one can consider that constructs, but gender itself is not distinguishable from biology.

Um, you literally just showed you know the definition of constructs and agree that they exist.

No one is saying gender is "pretend"- that's not what a social construct is. In some fashion, everything we think is "invented". Social constructs are REAL, and very hard to challenge. Perhaps more so than biology, even!

[Anonymous]

All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biology exists, no one is arguing that.

What people seem to oddly conflate is the idea that "gender is a social construct" means that "gender isn't real"... its VERY real. Social constructs are real, they have a basis in culture vs. science but that doesn't mean they aren't real. The language that "gender doesn't exist" somehow got tagged to people who advocate for trans rights, when that is obviously not true. Its not purely binary and never has been but it certainly exists- even though the roles and meanings of those gender terms are entirely built by the culture they are in.

Then why use “sex assigned at birth” instead of “biological sex”? Biologically we are male or female (anomalies excluded), do you agree?

The bolded is why. Sex assigned at birth is used because doctors/nurses/midwives can only assign sex by sight at birth- they aren't pricking a finger to get blood to check on the DNA of each child, and thus they can't say if they are one of those in the statistical small minority (.05-1.5% of population has intersex traits in some fashion per Amnesty International recent studies). You keep wanting to say anomalies, but to keep in perspective only about 1-2% of the population has red hair. So that's why language evolves, medical professionals know they can only assign the sex at birth by sight not make a biological determination of say XXY

No, they’re using the biology of males having penises and females having vaginas. It’s biology. It’s fact.

I understand people with physical anomalies with their sex organs having identity issues, but I don’t think that describes many transgender people. Aren’t the vast majority of them biologically male or female?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have many waves ions about the broader issue of what it means when people born and assigned the female gender at birth this I they can no longer identify as a woman because they don’t present as femme. Or vice versa. A dude can’t wear a dress. I thought the whole point of gender as a social construct was that we could be free to be you and me as we see fit. For example, where are all the butch lesbians? In my youth I hung with many. Now it seems the young ones who would’ve been “butch” in the 90s are just claiming FTM.
I guess overall to me it seems that frequently it actually pigeonholes gender stereotypes more when people feel that because they don’t represent a mainstream expression of gender they must somehow be transgender. I’m not trying to be trans exclusionary. I don’t actually GAF what anyone wants to identify as, I’ll call you what you want, but I just can’t get past the irony of how much of this actually perpetuates harmful gender stereotypes while trying to be free of them.

I went to Smith in the early aughts, so I know all about butch lesbians. I don't think the "disappearance" of them is that complicated, it's just society evolving. You think a butch lesbian now being transgender is pigeonholing because you are picturing the more limited, "old" view of what transgender meant (examples like say Caitlyn Jenner). When in reality the modern label of transgender is meant to be more inclusive, more the Eliot Page way of being more "non-binary" and "pansexual" and physically looking and dressing like either or.

It's as if a former butch lesbian saying they are now transgender is not saying, "I'm a woman becoming a man." But rather, "transgender encompasses all of these "non-traditional" presentations." I can be a FTM in 2020 without growing out my facial year, without binding my breasts. Dressing more traditionally male can be "enough" to be transgender in 2020.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's denial of basic biology to pretend gender is a social construct or that it exists on a spectrum. Gender reflects the biology. To pretend it was invented is purely rubbish. There are attributes given to the two genders that have been reinforced by culture over human history and one can consider that constructs, but gender itself is not distinguishable from biology.

But those attributes have always evolved. Over centuries and over cultures. With the modern world we're just more globalized and connected so we're observing the evolution happen in real time and discussing (dissecting?) it more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

I don’t think people are jealous of the attention... I think they are tired of being condescended to about not keeping up with the “right” terminology, being called names for asking questions, being accused of not being woke enough, being told they should be up to date on all of this but “look it up; it’s not my job to educate you.” I agree with the first part of your post, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biology exists, no one is arguing that.

What people seem to oddly conflate is the idea that "gender is a social construct" means that "gender isn't real"... its VERY real. Social constructs are real, they have a basis in culture vs. science but that doesn't mean they aren't real. The language that "gender doesn't exist" somehow got tagged to people who advocate for trans rights, when that is obviously not true. Its not purely binary and never has been but it certainly exists- even though the roles and meanings of those gender terms are entirely built by the culture they are in.

Then why use “sex assigned at birth” instead of “biological sex”? Biologically we are male or female (anomalies excluded), do you agree?

The bolded is why. Sex assigned at birth is used because doctors/nurses/midwives can only assign sex by sight at birth- they aren't pricking a finger to get blood to check on the DNA of each child, and thus they can't say if they are one of those in the statistical small minority (.05-1.5% of population has intersex traits in some fashion per Amnesty International recent studies). You keep wanting to say anomalies, but to keep in perspective only about 1-2% of the population has red hair. So that's why language evolves, medical professionals know they can only assign the sex at birth by sight not make a biological determination of say XXY

No, they’re using the biology of males having penises and females having vaginas. It’s biology. It’s fact.

I understand people with physical anomalies with their sex organs having identity issues, but I don’t think that describes many transgender people. Aren’t the vast majority of them biologically male or female?

You’re taking what you learned in an 8th grade bio class and thinking you know all there is to know about biology. Actual biologists - who study gene expression and hormones, etc- disagree with you. You can stick your fingers in your ears and loudly announce that you refuse to learn anything new, or you can realize that it’s a far more complex issue than you realize, and actual experts know it. Either way, I hope you treat trans folks kindly along the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

Who is up in arms? Could you be projecting?

Trust me, most of us are living our lives uninterested in participating in the attention seeking, suffering, or victimization Olympics that are all the rage. We are just trying to make sense of this to understand what it means to transition to make sure we don't offend anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Biology exists, no one is arguing that.

What people seem to oddly conflate is the idea that "gender is a social construct" means that "gender isn't real"... its VERY real. Social constructs are real, they have a basis in culture vs. science but that doesn't mean they aren't real. The language that "gender doesn't exist" somehow got tagged to people who advocate for trans rights, when that is obviously not true. Its not purely binary and never has been but it certainly exists- even though the roles and meanings of those gender terms are entirely built by the culture they are in.

Then why use “sex assigned at birth” instead of “biological sex”? Biologically we are male or female (anomalies excluded), do you agree?

The bolded is why. Sex assigned at birth is used because doctors/nurses/midwives can only assign sex by sight at birth- they aren't pricking a finger to get blood to check on the DNA of each child, and thus they can't say if they are one of those in the statistical small minority (.05-1.5% of population has intersex traits in some fashion per Amnesty International recent studies). You keep wanting to say anomalies, but to keep in perspective only about 1-2% of the population has red hair. So that's why language evolves, medical professionals know they can only assign the sex at birth by sight not make a biological determination of say XXY

No, they’re using the biology of males having penises and females having vaginas. It’s biology. It’s fact.

I understand people with physical anomalies with their sex organs having identity issues, but I don’t think that describes many transgender people. Aren’t the vast majority of them biologically male or female?

You’re taking what you learned in an 8th grade bio class and thinking you know all there is to know about biology. Actual biologists - who study gene expression and hormones, etc- disagree with you. You can stick your fingers in your ears and loudly announce that you refuse to learn anything new, or you can realize that it’s a far more complex issue than you realize, and actual experts know it. Either way, I hope you treat trans folks kindly along the way.

I think they are using K biology.

[Anonymous]

I don't get what it means to identify female or male (if someone isn't talking about body parts)? Are there aspects to life that are inherently female or inherently male aside from biology?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All the people who push back on all the trans coming out articles, I have to believe that for the vast majority of them, they would not give 2 farts about their neighbor, coworker, etc being a trans person. They wouldn't stay up wondering all these "questions" and would treat them with respect, etc.....but for some reason they tend to get up in arms whenever trans people get attention for being trans. That seems to be a big part of what bothers them. And I can't for the life of me figure out why except maybe they resent that they don't get attention for living their lives, so what makes trans people/gay people/ whatever so special?

It bears repeating that maybe instead of wondering where your attention/medal/parade/movement is, be happy that you have never been in a position where you needed one.

I don’t think people are jealous of the attention... I think they are tired of being condescended to about not keeping up with the “right” terminology, being called names for asking questions, being accused of not being woke enough, being told they should be up to date on all of this but “look it up; it’s not my job to educate you.” I agree with the first part of your post, though.

Like so many things, any hint of error can be taken as condescension from another. It’s an internal problem aimed outwardly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of the wide-eyed responses here are just wild. If you can read at an 8th grade level or name all the Kardashians, you sure as hell have the mental capacity to comprehend gender identity.

To pretend otherwise is just willful ignorance.

The people on this thread asking questions are not people who give a fig about the Kardashians.

The truth is most of this gender stuff makes little sense. You are born with a biological sex. It is based on your chromosomes. What does it mean to be a man or a woman beyond that? What does it mean to say you know you are a different gender than what your chromosomes indicate? Separate from biological sex most ways we define gender are a bunch of made up bullshit that varies from culture to culture. People who pretend this is cut and dried are full of it.

The way I see it is that everything else in nature is a spectrum and we are now realizing that gender and sexuality are also on a spectrum.

Gender and sexuality are on a spectrum. ITA! But, biology isn’t. Biology is objective. I would like to know why the phrase “sex assigned at birth” is used instead of “biological sex.”

I just find it difficult to pretend biology doesn’t exist. Biology makes you physically a man or a woman...for the vast majority of people (recognizing the small percentage of biological abnormalities).

A think I agree with a PP who thinks the idea of gender shouldn’t exist. You are biologically what you are (man or woman), but you live as you feel, whether that be masculine, feminine, or a fun mix of both.

I agree. Gender is a social construct that isn’t really real. I’ll call someone whatever name they want, use whatever pronouns they want, will fight discrimination, etc, but deep inside I know the only thing that makes me a woman is the way I was socialized due to my biology. In some circles this makes me TERF scum or something, but it’s the only thing that really makes sense.

Thank you for agreeing! It’s just...biology exists, and it’s crazy to pretend it doesn’t. That said, I will always treat people with respect and call them as they wish.

We are learning that biology isn’t really binary. There are people who are X, XX, XXX, XY, XXY and probably more. So while I personally get frustrated with the drama surrounding announcements like this, it is true that there are many of us walking around who simply are not binary XX and XY and that has to have its effects on the individuals who are different.

The greater DNA testing grows, the more we learn that we almost all have genetic and chromosomal variations of all sorts that affect us on a spectrum.