Why don't people want to go to tj just because there are "too many" asians?

[Anonymous]

But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

This is silly, there is no way you can compare the special upper level classes at TJ (and the peer group that gets to take them) with a typical class at GMU. No, of course not, they would NOT get the same experience, not even close.

But I do agree with you that many of the problems at TJ may stem from the large school population. The kids who are pushed to go there should not go there and the entry requirements should be heavily focused on math and science. Perhaps if the school was half the size with all the really talented kids going there, there would be less suffering, less cheating, etc.

I also think that the OP's suggestion that race plays a factor in people not wanting to go is flawed. This isn't about race, it's about the problems that others see when they read and hear about TJ. On the one hand, it clearly has outstanding peer groups, amazing math/science classes, labs and electives (especially the upper level stuff that goes waaay beyond AP). On the other hand, the workload is pretty crazy and causes undue stress, and there definitely a level of cheating/getting ahead that is not healthy and conducive to learning. Clearly these cons can rule out a lot of pros for many kids who are undecided or on the edge as to what they want to do and/or what type of high school environment they want to be in for 4 years.

TJ can lower the stress levels by removing unnecessary requirements and giving kids more freedom to take the classes they are interested in, as they will be finely prepared for college without having to jump through a million hoops. They can also ensure that all teachers are highly qualified to TEACH (not just lecture), maintain a high level of rigor but be empathetic and encouraging, especially when it comes to timed tests, etc. Finally cheating obviously should be dealt with firmly (as in removal from the school). But that's not enough; also adopt policies that does not incentivize cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

This is silly, there is no way you can compare the special upper level classes at TJ (and the peer group that gets to take them) with a typical class at GMU. No, of course not, they would NOT get the same experience, not even close.

But I do agree with you that many of the problems at TJ may stem from the large school population. The kids who are pushed to go there should not go there and the entry requirements should be heavily focused on math and science. Perhaps if the school was half the size with all the really talented kids going there, there would be less suffering, less cheating, etc.

I also think that the OP's suggestion that race plays a factor in people not wanting to go is flawed. This isn't about race, it's about the problems that others see when they read and hear about TJ. On the one hand, it clearly has outstanding peer groups, amazing math/science classes, labs and electives (especially the upper level stuff that goes waaay beyond AP). On the other hand, the workload is pretty crazy and causes undue stress, and there definitely a level of cheating/getting ahead that is not healthy and conducive to learning. Clearly these cons can rule out a lot of pros for many kids who are undecided or on the edge as to what they want to do and/or what type of high school environment they want to be in for 4 years.

TJ can lower the stress levels by removing unnecessary requirements and giving kids more freedom to take the classes they are interested in, as they will be finely prepared for college without having to jump through a million hoops. They can also ensure that all teachers are highly qualified to TEACH (not just lecture), maintain a high level of rigor but be empathetic and encouraging, especially when it comes to timed tests, etc. Finally cheating obviously should be dealt with firmly (as in removal from the school). But that's not enough; also adopt policies that does not incentivize cheating.

“Unnecessary requirements” ?? You lost me there. One of the reasons why a TJ education is respected by colleges is that EVERYONE goes through the same thing. There is no easy road. Every kid who graduates from TJ has passed Calc BC class. Don’t water it down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

This is silly, there is no way you can compare the special upper level classes at TJ (and the peer group that gets to take them) with a typical class at GMU. No, of course not, they would NOT get the same experience, not even close.

But I do agree with you that many of the problems at TJ may stem from the large school population. The kids who are pushed to go there should not go there and the entry requirements should be heavily focused on math and science. Perhaps if the school was half the size with all the really talented kids going there, there would be less suffering, less cheating, etc.

I also think that the OP's suggestion that race plays a factor in people not wanting to go is flawed. This isn't about race, it's about the problems that others see when they read and hear about TJ. On the one hand, it clearly has outstanding peer groups, amazing math/science classes, labs and electives (especially the upper level stuff that goes waaay beyond AP). On the other hand, the workload is pretty crazy and causes undue stress, and there definitely a level of cheating/getting ahead that is not healthy and conducive to learning. Clearly these cons can rule out a lot of pros for many kids who are undecided or on the edge as to what they want to do and/or what type of high school environment they want to be in for 4 years.

TJ can lower the stress levels by removing unnecessary requirements and giving kids more freedom to take the classes they are interested in, as they will be finely prepared for college without having to jump through a million hoops. They can also ensure that all teachers are highly qualified to TEACH (not just lecture), maintain a high level of rigor but be empathetic and encouraging, especially when it comes to timed tests, etc. Finally cheating obviously should be dealt with firmly (as in removal from the school). But that's not enough; also adopt policies that does not incentivize cheating.

“Unnecessary requirements” ?? You lost me there. One of the reasons why a TJ education is respected by colleges is that EVERYONE goes through the same thing. There is no easy road. Every kid who graduates from TJ has passed Calc BC class. Don’t water it down.

But that's just the point, the amount of hoops they have to jump through (especially a lot of non math and science graduation requirements) actually detracts and distracts from their ability to focus on the stuff that brought them to TJ in the first place! The who kids who really love math and science and are passionate about it barely have the time to go deep into them because they have to make sure they fulfill all the other stuff, putting them at risk of burning out. So naturally you get many strung out kids who are taking 7+ classes each semester but they don't have the time to actually master everything. Sure, you can argue that it's rigorous and it's not supposed to be easy, but the point here is that it's not conducive to learning. Look, I completely agree that too many kids shouldn't go there and their math skills are already shaky going in, (some of these kids don't take math classes beyond calculus at TJ, which partially defeats the purpose of going to TJ if they don't get exposed to upper electives). If kids cannot handle even taking their advanced upper electives, they may not be a good fit for the school.

Why does TJ have to be "competitive", whatever that means? The kids are already smart and competitive enough and obviously already do very well in college. But many are suffering because of stress (or possibly even depression) due to the environment at TJ. Some resign themselves to surviving becoming automatons, and losing their love of learning. I think the administration should put an equal amount of effort into supporting the kids by giving them a more flexible schedule that doesn't impede their ability to have a fulfilling experience at TJ. And that doesn't mean cutting any rigor, what it means is removing the barriers that prevent them from fulfilling their potential.

I would love to hear from kids or graduates who actually attended the school; I think they would agree that more work needs to be put in place to help make the experience better (and result in more people wanting to go to TJ).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

This is silly, there is no way you can compare the special upper level classes at TJ (and the peer group that gets to take them) with a typical class at GMU. No, of course not, they would NOT get the same experience, not even close.

But I do agree with you that many of the problems at TJ may stem from the large school population. The kids who are pushed to go there should not go there and the entry requirements should be heavily focused on math and science. Perhaps if the school was half the size with all the really talented kids going there, there would be less suffering, less cheating, etc.

I also think that the OP's suggestion that race plays a factor in people not wanting to go is flawed. This isn't about race, it's about the problems that others see when they read and hear about TJ. On the one hand, it clearly has outstanding peer groups, amazing math/science classes, labs and electives (especially the upper level stuff that goes waaay beyond AP). On the other hand, the workload is pretty crazy and causes undue stress, and there definitely a level of cheating/getting ahead that is not healthy and conducive to learning. Clearly these cons can rule out a lot of pros for many kids who are undecided or on the edge as to what they want to do and/or what type of high school environment they want to be in for 4 years.

TJ can lower the stress levels by removing unnecessary requirements and giving kids more freedom to take the classes they are interested in, as they will be finely prepared for college without having to jump through a million hoops. They can also ensure that all teachers are highly qualified to TEACH (not just lecture), maintain a high level of rigor but be empathetic and encouraging, especially when it comes to timed tests, etc. Finally cheating obviously should be dealt with firmly (as in removal from the school). But that's not enough; also adopt policies that does not incentivize cheating.

“Unnecessary requirements” ?? You lost me there. One of the reasons why a TJ education is respected by colleges is that EVERYONE goes through the same thing. There is no easy road. Every kid who graduates from TJ has passed Calc BC class. Don’t water it down.

Oh and I forgot to add, the above is EXACTLY what makes a school a shitty place! Why do you want everyone to experience the same thing? People are different, have different interests, and different capacities to handle workloads. Why can't they choose what they want to take? How come they have great freedom and flexibility in college, e.g Harvard, etc? Why do they have to fully stressed out at TJ in order to get to enjoy taking 4-5 classes at Harvard?

[Anonymous]

TJ is fine. It is meant for highly driven kids who are interested in STEM and could use a greater challenge.

There are flaws in all schools. For TJ, there is a clear benefit for families who have the money and drive to send their kids to tutoring programs in order to increase a kids prowess in math and science at an early age. This allows those kids to have an advantage in that they are more likely to participate in advanced math in junior high.

There are plenty of anecdotes of parents who pressure their kids to attend TJ, I have a co-worker who flat out said that they told their daughter she would get a car when she could drive if she attended and stayed at TJ. She flat out said her daughter had no interest in TJ and only went for the car. Her daughter graduated and is now studying English in college. TJ was not meant for this girl because she was not interested in STEM but her parents wanted her to attend and she was accepted so she went.

The issue of minority candidates and the lack of African Americans and Hispanics at TJ is a system wide problem with education and an educational divide. It is an issue in AAP, Honors classes, AP/IB programs, and TJ. You don't fix that divide by removing the advanced programs. You fix that problem by finding some way to reach those kids who are struggling with educational needs and not hampering the kids who are capable of more advanced classes and programs.

Plenty of kids are going to do very well in their base schools but TJ really does reach out to a certain type of kid who can do even more. I don't think that the kids who attend TJ are that much better placed than kids who don't. Lots of kids go on to great colleges or very good colleges that attend their base schools. Lots of kids from base schools go into Engineering, Computer Science, or Medicine. TJ is not a guarantee for anything after high school just like the Ivies and other prestige colleges are not a guarantee for anything. As eith everything, it is what the individual chooses to do with the experience and the network they develop.

I think TJ would work better if there really was a way to make sure that the kids who are there are attending because they want to be there and not because their parents want them there or they think it is a prestige thing. But you can say that about any school or program.

[Anonymous]

It would be a better use of resources and fairer to students throughout the county to return TJ to usage as a community school.

FCPS is systematically giving an advantage to a select group of kids from a specific background, at the expense of other students in the county who are not provided with access to similar resources and have to attend schools that are more crowded because TJ caps its enrollment and 30% of TJ students are from other jurisdictions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It would be a better use of resources and fairer to students throughout the county to return TJ to usage as a community school.

FCPS is systematically giving an advantage to a select group of kids from a specific background, at the expense of other students in the county who are not provided with access to similar resources and have to attend schools that are more crowded because TJ caps its enrollment and 30% of TJ students are from other jurisdictions.

And how would that be fair to the students in the area who would be bored to tears at their local high schools? Do you really think the local high schools could replicate an environment like TJ and get those "similar resources" you mentioned? Or do you believe that just because something is not fair to all students it shouldn't exist?

TJ needs to change its cutthroat culture for sure, and allow students more flexibility to flourish and learn without heavy amounts of stress. But shutting it down is just ridiculous, especially as there is no other program like it.

[Anonymous]

It's not just TJ. I found the perspectives in these articles interesting:

https://psmag.com/news/ghosts-of-white-people-past-witnessing-white-flight-from-an-asian-ethnoburb

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1157&context=djclpp

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

This is silly, there is no way you can compare the special upper level classes at TJ (and the peer group that gets to take them) with a typical class at GMU. No, of course not, they would NOT get the same experience, not even close.

But I do agree with you that many of the problems at TJ may stem from the large school population. The kids who are pushed to go there should not go there and the entry requirements should be heavily focused on math and science. Perhaps if the school was half the size with all the really talented kids going there, there would be less suffering, less cheating, etc.

I also think that the OP's suggestion that race plays a factor in people not wanting to go is flawed. This isn't about race, it's about the problems that others see when they read and hear about TJ. On the one hand, it clearly has outstanding peer groups, amazing math/science classes, labs and electives (especially the upper level stuff that goes waaay beyond AP). On the other hand, the workload is pretty crazy and causes undue stress, and there definitely a level of cheating/getting ahead that is not healthy and conducive to learning. Clearly these cons can rule out a lot of pros for many kids who are undecided or on the edge as to what they want to do and/or what type of high school environment they want to be in for 4 years.

TJ can lower the stress levels by removing unnecessary requirements and giving kids more freedom to take the classes they are interested in, as they will be finely prepared for college without having to jump through a million hoops. They can also ensure that all teachers are highly qualified to TEACH (not just lecture), maintain a high level of rigor but be empathetic and encouraging, especially when it comes to timed tests, etc. Finally cheating obviously should be dealt with firmly (as in removal from the school). But that's not enough; also adopt policies that does not incentivize cheating.

“Unnecessary requirements” ?? You lost me there. One of the reasons why a TJ education is respected by colleges is that EVERYONE goes through the same thing. There is no easy road. Every kid who graduates from TJ has passed Calc BC class. Don’t water it down.

But that's just the point, the amount of hoops they have to jump through (especially a lot of non math and science graduation requirements) actually detracts and distracts from their ability to focus on the stuff that brought them to TJ in the first place! The who kids who really love math and science and are passionate about it barely have the time to go deep into them because they have to make sure they fulfill all the other stuff, putting them at risk of burning out. So naturally you get many strung out kids who are taking 7+ classes each semester but they don't have the time to actually master everything. Sure, you can argue that it's rigorous and it's not supposed to be easy, but the point here is that it's not conducive to learning. Look, I completely agree that too many kids shouldn't go there and their math skills are already shaky going in, (some of these kids don't take math classes beyond calculus at TJ, which partially defeats the purpose of going to TJ if they don't get exposed to upper electives). If kids cannot handle even taking their advanced upper electives, they may not be a good fit for the school.

Why does TJ have to be "competitive", whatever that means? The kids are already smart and competitive enough and obviously already do very well in college. But many are suffering because of stress (or possibly even depression) due to the environment at TJ. Some resign themselves to surviving becoming automatons, and losing their love of learning. I think the administration should put an equal amount of effort into supporting the kids by giving them a more flexible schedule that doesn't impede their ability to have a fulfilling experience at TJ. And that doesn't mean cutting any rigor, what it means is removing the barriers that prevent them from fulfilling their potential.

I would love to hear from kids or graduates who actually attended the school; I think they would agree that more work needs to be put in place to help make the experience better (and result in more people wanting to go to TJ).

I'm a junior at TJ, and I don't really understand what people mean by TJ having too many requirements. If I would have gone to my IB high school, I would have had a much more restrictive schedule (if I wanted to pursue an IB diploma, which I would have) taking a bunch of classes I wasn't interested in taking. Also, I really don't understand why everyone thinks there's a cutthroat culture at TJ. On the contrary, the students are really supportive of each other. Maybe if you're the paranoid type, you might think it's cutthroat, but it isn't in reality.

[Anonymous]

TJ is the #1 high school in the country. Why would you close it? That's crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

The status quo: TJ is the number one high school in America. The crown jewel of the FCPS system. Now you go ahead and make "a compelling case" that we need to do away with TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not just TJ. I found the perspectives in these articles interesting:

https://psmag.com/news/ghosts-of-white-people-past-witnessing-white-flight-from-an-asian-ethnoburb

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1157&context=djclpp

Yep.. I recall a heated thread on the first article a while back which was eventually shut down. I made this point earlier.. If TJ was majority white, no one will be hollering about it and making sour grapes comments along the lines of "cutthroat culture, too difficult, too many asians", etc. They will never complain about "too many whites".

Like I also said, no one will ever shut down this school. They can dream. Only a fool would actually go about doing that and I don't such a Virginia Governor on the radar.

Here's the reality folks. Asians are here to stay. The typical immigrant wave loses their "special characteristic" in about 3 generations and tends to assume similar values and experience outcomes as the mean. We now have a country (India) that is now a key source of immigration which will continue to supply first-gen immigrants (who will produce TJ-aspiring or other magnet school aspiring kids) for decades to come. Most Indians also enter the country with high paying jobs unlike previous waves and don't necessarily "look up" to the whites as role models. Step up your game or step aside and move to the exburbs.

[Anonymous]

Any South Koreans there? They are so intelligent!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But no one is making a compelling case that FCPS needs to have a TJ in 2020. The main justification seems to be that it used to be dominated by whites so we can't pull the plug on it now if it's dominated by Asians. But that still leaves unresolved whether most TJ students would do just as well at their base schools; whether having TJ degrades all the other high schools; and whether the small # of students who truly need something more than their base schools could offer could get that through dual enrollment at GMU.

We have some fresh thinkers on the new School Board and they should take a hard look at the benefits and costs.

The status quo: TJ is the number one high school in America. The crown jewel of the FCPS system. Now you go ahead and make "a compelling case" that we need to do away with TJ.

That argument assumes that the goal of a school system with 25 high and secondary schools is to have one school that stands out.

If MCPS created a single STEM magnet school that pulled hundreds of kids from Whitman, Churchill, Wootton, Walter Johnson and B-CC, as well as kids from other schools, that school would become the #1 school per US News, likely ahead of TJ. If a bunch of towns in Westchester County like Scarsdale, Chappaqua, Rye and Mamaroneck decided to form a regional magnet, it would become the #1 school.

Basically FCPS outsourced education policy to a Republican Board of Supervisors in the mid-80s, which decided that having a STEM magnet would be good for marketing. Any reputable school system of its size would perform a retrospective review to consider whether the educational and reputational benefits outweigh the costs. And the costs are clear: among other things, turning TJ into a magnet deprived that part of Fairfax County of a neighborhood school; having one magnet school is a brain drain that deprives other schools of some of their best students; and operating a school that is held out as the "crown jewel," yet systematically admits an insignificant number of non-Asian minority students, sends a strong message to black and Hispanic kids that FCPS doesn't see them as deserving access to the same resources as the Asian students and dwindling number of white students at TJ.

Conversely, a School Board consisting of self-interested parties whose own kids have attended TJ or cowards who are afraid to rock the boat would pretend that it has no responsibilities with respect to TJ other than re-up its status as a magnet school every year. That's what we've had recently, and no School Board member who just preserves the status quo should pretend for one minute that anyone thinks he or she really cares about "equity" within Fairfax County.