$24 billion NYC public schools only accepted 7 black students (of 895) to top magnet high schoool

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Let's all be careful and understand that Asians in Asia are different than Asian Americans. Two completely different people and cohorts. Don't cherry pick things that happen halfway around the world in a different country and economic system and political system and try to extrapolate it and stereotype Asian Americans here in the U.S. It's gross and ignorant and bordering racist - the perpetual "othering" of Asian Americans and coloring them as "foreigners". Asian Americans are Americans.

THIS.

All students who got into the magnet schools are AMERICANS. They got in because of their merit. No need to look at race because that is stupid way to measure American achievement. Give a chance to every student, maybe make all eligible students take this mandatory test and see how everyone is doing. Let's celebrate the fact that 45% of students in this top magnet school are on FARMS.

So they don't allow immigrants into Stuy?

Immigrants are AMERICANS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improve all schools so someone who doesn’t get into the magnet school isn’t disappointed. The magnet school becomes less about access to superior education and rather matching students to their proper level of academic rigor.

No one wins if it’s a zero sum game. It’s disappointing however that this discussion on racial disparity becomes more charged when Asian Americans are the majority. I hope the discourse stays away from “blaming” Asian Americans.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Crappy schools aren't crappy because of the teachers or resources. They are crappy because of the large number of crappy students. If you switched the populations between Langley HS and some SE DC HS and kept everything else about the schools the same. The formerly crappy schools would become top performing.

What if the families swapped completely? Give those SE DC families the Langley parent's education/career/homes/bank accounts.

It's not like the kids are just born crappy. They are born into a crappy system that is tough to escape.

How about taking the kids from these crappy families and letting the high achieving families foster them? Many of these low achieving kids would have a real chance if they were under someone else's care and had to follow rules. Obviously, there is no way that these parents can be taught how to parent effectively, since parenting is ingrained by a person's own childhood experience. This is the only way to break generations of crappy parenting that results in crappy academic achievement.

Like we did to American Indians? Cultural genocide.

So then we just accept low achievement as part of their culture, and stop talking about closing the achievement gap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improve all schools so someone who doesn’t get into the magnet school isn’t disappointed. The magnet school becomes less about access to superior education and rather matching students to their proper level of academic rigor.

No one wins if it’s a zero sum game. It’s disappointing however that this discussion on racial disparity becomes more charged when Asian Americans are the majority. I hope the discourse stays away from “blaming” Asian Americans.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Crappy schools aren't crappy because of the teachers or resources. They are crappy because of the large number of crappy students. If you switched the populations between Langley HS and some SE DC HS and kept everything else about the schools the same. The formerly crappy schools would become top performing.

What if the families swapped completely? Give those SE DC families the Langley parent's education/career/homes/bank accounts.

It's not like the kids are just born crappy. They are born into a crappy system that is tough to escape.

How about taking the kids from these crappy families and letting the high achieving families foster them? Many of these low achieving kids would have a real chance if they were under someone else's care and had to follow rules. Obviously, there is no way that these parents can be taught how to parent effectively, since parenting is ingrained by a person's own childhood experience. This is the only way to break generations of crappy parenting that results in crappy academic achievement.

Like Sandra bullock in the Blind Side.

She did not take somebody from a family. He was homeless at the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“This is actually tricky -
Admission to Stuyvesant is determined by a single test avail to all middle school students in NYC.There are no soft criteria-no interviews,no legacy favoritism, no strings to be pulled. It’s all abt test score which determines if you can handle academics.”

- Stephanie Ruhle, MSNBC

Maggie Haberman, NYT, quoted Ruhle to say:
“White students generally have more means with which to prep for this test, some doing it for years. Yes it’s a test, no it is not an equal playing field.”

I’m not sure why Maggie used white when Asians are the ones dominating this system.

The simple truth is that Asian relative overperformance demonstrates that “discrimination” is not a significant driver of outcomes on this sort of test. It has always been a very inconvenient truth for those who insist all groups are equally talented, generally ignored because of that inconvenience, and because Asians didn’t seem to want to make a big issue out of it. Now there is a critical mass of Asians who are going to resist getting shafted in the name of diversity. Will be interesting to see how that all works out.

You think it's a level playing field? So it's just pure talent that is being compared by these tests?

um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

I'd guess that the home lives of most poor black/Latino kids are pretty different from those of poor kids with Asian immigrant parents. For example, I'd imagine that the level of trauma exposure would be a lot higher in the former.

and why is that, shouldn't we be addressing that instead of saying everything is racist?

The definition of institutional racism is to create an institution that has barriers for 1 race and not others.

?

Are you implying that we select student into an academic institution based on basketball scores?

Nice racist post or their EQ... oh wait that would keep all Asians out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improve all schools so someone who doesn’t get into the magnet school isn’t disappointed. The magnet school becomes less about access to superior education and rather matching students to their proper level of academic rigor.

No one wins if it’s a zero sum game. It’s disappointing however that this discussion on racial disparity becomes more charged when Asian Americans are the majority. I hope the discourse stays away from “blaming” Asian Americans.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Crappy schools aren't crappy because of the teachers or resources. They are crappy because of the large number of crappy students. If you switched the populations between Langley HS and some SE DC HS and kept everything else about the schools the same. The formerly crappy schools would become top performing.

What if the families swapped completely? Give those SE DC families the Langley parent's education/career/homes/bank accounts.

It's not like the kids are just born crappy. They are born into a crappy system that is tough to escape.

How about taking the kids from these crappy families and letting the high achieving families foster them? Many of these low achieving kids would have a real chance if they were under someone else's care and had to follow rules. Obviously, there is no way that these parents can be taught how to parent effectively, since parenting is ingrained by a person's own childhood experience. This is the only way to break generations of crappy parenting that results in crappy academic achievement.

Like Sandra bullock in the Blind Side.

Black and Asian, 1st gen PP here. Just speaking for my own experience, I grew up in majority AA areas, mixed SES area--anywhere from families on food stamps to working class to a few middle class families. Many people either grew up with a single parent, or were even raised by grandparents. Most people have no idea about how to work the educational system, and most families didn't seem to aspire for their kids to go to any particular selective universities. I know bright young AA kids right now who were not even advised to prep for the SATs, or apply out of the area to more competitive schools that may be a fit. Most kids headed to the military, or one of the local colleges in my area, including a low-ranked HBCU. No one really aspired to go to any elite colleges, or even knew what those were.

I think that for AA or Latino kids from that background to even aim high for selective schools, it shows some real ambition and grit. And achieving a "passable" high score for these schools should warrant them serious consideration, IMO, because they aren't starting from the same point (in terms of families that have prioritized education in the same way that many white or even low SES Asian families have). So while taking kids from their families isn't really a serious suggestion, I do think kids' backgrounds should be considered. I doubt scoring in the top 10% vs. 1% of scores will lead to meaningful differences in life outcomes (or at least, I haven't seen any data to suggest as much). I like the suggestion from another PP that a certain minimum score (e.g., top 10 or 15%?) gets you in the "pool" for a lottery of sorts for a spot at one of these selective schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:“This is actually tricky -
Admission to Stuyvesant is determined by a single test avail to all middle school students in NYC.There are no soft criteria-no interviews,no legacy favoritism, no strings to be pulled. It’s all abt test score which determines if you can handle academics.”

- Stephanie Ruhle, MSNBC

Maggie Haberman, NYT, quoted Ruhle to say:
“White students generally have more means with which to prep for this test, some doing it for years. Yes it’s a test, no it is not an equal playing field.”

I’m not sure why Maggie used white when Asians are the ones dominating this system.

The simple truth is that Asian relative overperformance demonstrates that “discrimination” is not a significant driver of outcomes on this sort of test. It has always been a very inconvenient truth for those who insist all groups are equally talented, generally ignored because of that inconvenience, and because Asians didn’t seem to want to make a big issue out of it. Now there is a critical mass of Asians who are going to resist getting shafted in the name of diversity. Will be interesting to see how that all works out.

You think it's a level playing field? So it's just pure talent that is being compared by these tests?

um yeah. There are poor and middle class asian kids who are getting in. That throws out race and SES as an excuse

I'd guess that the home lives of most poor black/Latino kids are pretty different from those of poor kids with Asian immigrant parents. For example, I'd imagine that the level of trauma exposure would be a lot higher in the former.

and why is that, shouldn't we be addressing that instead of saying everything is racist?

The definition of institutional racism is to create an institution that has barriers for 1 race and not others.

?

Are you implying that we select student into an academic institution based on basketball scores?

Nice racist post or their EQ... oh wait that would keep all Asians out.

That’s for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improve all schools so someone who doesn’t get into the magnet school isn’t disappointed. The magnet school becomes less about access to superior education and rather matching students to their proper level of academic rigor.

No one wins if it’s a zero sum game. It’s disappointing however that this discussion on racial disparity becomes more charged when Asian Americans are the majority. I hope the discourse stays away from “blaming” Asian Americans.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Crappy schools aren't crappy because of the teachers or resources. They are crappy because of the large number of crappy students. If you switched the populations between Langley HS and some SE DC HS and kept everything else about the schools the same. The formerly crappy schools would become top performing.

What if the families swapped completely? Give those SE DC families the Langley parent's education/career/homes/bank accounts.

It's not like the kids are just born crappy. They are born into a crappy system that is tough to escape.

How about taking the kids from these crappy families and letting the high achieving families foster them? Many of these low achieving kids would have a real chance if they were under someone else's care and had to follow rules. Obviously, there is no way that these parents can be taught how to parent effectively, since parenting is ingrained by a person's own childhood experience. This is the only way to break generations of crappy parenting that results in crappy academic achievement.

Like Sandra bullock in the Blind Side.

Black and Asian, 1st gen PP here. Just speaking for my own experience, I grew up in majority AA areas, mixed SES area--anywhere from families on food stamps to working class to a few middle class families. Many people either grew up with a single parent, or were even raised by grandparents. Most people have no idea about how to work the educational system, and most families didn't seem to aspire for their kids to go to any particular selective universities. I know bright young AA kids right now who were not even advised to prep for the SATs, or apply out of the area to more competitive schools that may be a fit. Most kids headed to the military, or one of the local colleges in my area, including a low-ranked HBCU. No one really aspired to go to any elite colleges, or even knew what those were.

I think that for AA or Latino kids from that background to even aim high for selective schools, it shows some real ambition and grit. And achieving a "passable" high score for these schools should warrant them serious consideration, IMO, because they aren't starting from the same point (in terms of families that have prioritized education in the same way that many white or even low SES Asian families have). So while taking kids from their families isn't really a serious suggestion, I do think kids' backgrounds should be considered. I doubt scoring in the top 10% vs. 1% of scores will lead to meaningful differences in life outcomes (or at least, I haven't seen any data to suggest as much). I like the suggestion from another PP that a certain minimum score (e.g., top 10 or 15%?) gets you in the "pool" for a lottery of sorts for a spot at one of these selective schools.

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Improve all schools so someone who doesn’t get into the magnet school isn’t disappointed. The magnet school becomes less about access to superior education and rather matching students to their proper level of academic rigor.

No one wins if it’s a zero sum game. It’s disappointing however that this discussion on racial disparity becomes more charged when Asian Americans are the majority. I hope the discourse stays away from “blaming” Asian Americans.

Let me let you in on a little secret. Crappy schools aren't crappy because of the teachers or resources. They are crappy because of the large number of crappy students. If you switched the populations between Langley HS and some SE DC HS and kept everything else about the schools the same. The formerly crappy schools would become top performing.

What if the families swapped completely? Give those SE DC families the Langley parent's education/career/homes/bank accounts.

It's not like the kids are just born crappy. They are born into a crappy system that is tough to escape.

How about taking the kids from these crappy families and letting the high achieving families foster them? Many of these low achieving kids would have a real chance if they were under someone else's care and had to follow rules. Obviously, there is no way that these parents can be taught how to parent effectively, since parenting is ingrained by a person's own childhood experience. This is the only way to break generations of crappy parenting that results in crappy academic achievement.

Like Sandra bullock in the Blind Side.

Black and Asian, 1st gen PP here. Just speaking for my own experience, I grew up in majority AA areas, mixed SES area--anywhere from families on food stamps to working class to a few middle class families. Many people either grew up with a single parent, or were even raised by grandparents. Most people have no idea about how to work the educational system, and most families didn't seem to aspire for their kids to go to any particular selective universities. I know bright young AA kids right now who were not even advised to prep for the SATs, or apply out of the area to more competitive schools that may be a fit. Most kids headed to the military, or one of the local colleges in my area, including a low-ranked HBCU. No one really aspired to go to any elite colleges, or even knew what those were.

I think that for AA or Latino kids from that background to even aim high for selective schools, it shows some real ambition and grit. And achieving a "passable" high score for these schools should warrant them serious consideration, IMO, because they aren't starting from the same point (in terms of families that have prioritized education in the same way that many white or even low SES Asian families have). So while taking kids from their families isn't really a serious suggestion, I do think kids' backgrounds should be considered. I doubt scoring in the top 10% vs. 1% of scores will lead to meaningful differences in life outcomes (or at least, I haven't seen any data to suggest as much). I like the suggestion from another PP that a certain minimum score (e.g., top 10 or 15%?) gets you in the "pool" for a lottery of sorts for a spot at one of these selective schools.

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

I hear a lot about the "promising black/Latino kids" who are left behind. What about the vast pool of "promising Asian-American" who are left behind? Heck, what about the "proven Asian-American" who are left behind? There are vastly more Asian-American students who are rejected inspite of having all the credentials, drive and promise that other races who are chosen. The racism and the disregard shown towards the Asian-Americans by Whites as well as URMs is breathtaking in its arrogance, entitlement and blindness.

[Anonymous]

Having attended one of these highly selective schools as one of a few AA kids, I can tell you that after a while the numbers become self-fulfilling. You see that only 7 got in, you now have no interest in being one of only 7, so when its your time to apply, you go for comfort instead of challenge. Remember that high school, beyond education, is also hormones, social, friends, relationships with teachers, dances, environment. Being one of a few is no fun in the middle of all the "do I fit in". It takes a kid with serious support, independence and will to want to be one of a few. And let's be honest, if you can be valedictorian in a less rigorous place, that beats being in the middle in a more rigorous place as far as college applications go. That's the calculation some make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Having attended one of these highly selective schools as one of a few AA kids, I can tell you that after a while the numbers become self-fulfilling. You see that only 7 got in, you now have no interest in being one of only 7, so when its your time to apply, you go for comfort instead of challenge. Remember that high school, beyond education, is also hormones, social, friends, relationships with teachers, dances, environment. Being one of a few is no fun in the middle of all the "do I fit in". It takes a kid with serious support, independence and will to want to be one of a few. And let's be honest, if you can be valedictorian in a less rigorous place, that beats being in the middle in a more rigorous place as far as college applications go. That's the calculation some make.

I was wondering if that's why the test rate for whites was relatively low.

Here is Fairfax, if you don't get into TJ, you still get to go to a pretty solid to amazing base high school. That's where NYC is failing its students and where attention needs to be placed. Also, there are obvious failings in the school system at the early years if only 7 African American kids get in. 7! People aren't saying make the school half Black or even 20% or 10%. But we can do better than 7. The NYC school system should be embarrassed. If you are blaming Asian American families or Black families then you have a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Test Prep

Sure, it has nothing to do with intellect, work ethic and a cultural value placed on education. Keep your unintelligent head in the sand and things will never change.

I don't think going to a tutor starting at 5 and not having a childhood is something to honor or imitate.

OK. Then don't. That's your prerogative. But they you aren't allowed to bitch and moan about how others get better test scores, and so more opportunities. Or, for that matter, whine about changing the entrance requirements away from test scores because some groups aren't scoring as well as others.

+1. You’re an utter imbecile. The school tells you exactly what the entrance requirement is but instead of focusing on having your child adequately prepared you’re faulting other parents for having their children too prepared? When your child doesn’t study for a test and does poorly you blame the kids that studied? You live in an embarrassing world of low achievement, excuses, misdirected blame and a complete lack of willingness to take accountability for your actions and outcomes.

You live in a book. That is a sad existence and you are robbing your children of real learning.

Again, you parent the way you want. Just don't whine when your parenting style doesn't yield the results you want, especially when the criteria for admission are well known.

Funny, my parenting has gotten my kids exactly where i want them, which was not predetermined at 5. But go ahead with you law suits. You are clearly the one not happy with "admission criteria".

I'm puzzled by this comment, in the context of this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The "pool" in NYC is going to be heavily Asian no matter what. The stats at the "less competitive" magnets right now support this.

PP. Fair enough--I was just trying to think of a way to make the pool a bit more diverse, while also trying to scoop up a few more of the promising black/Latino kids. Perhaps the metrics would need to be shifted a bit, or allow additional, weighted metrics, in order to achieve more diversity in the pool. Just brainstorming.

I hear a lot about the "promising black/Latino kids" who are left behind. What about the vast pool of "promising Asian-American" who are left behind? Heck, what about the "proven Asian-American" who are left behind? There are vastly more Asian-American students who are rejected inspite of having all the credentials, drive and promise that other races who are chosen. The racism and the disregard shown towards the Asian-Americans by Whites as well as URMs is breathtaking in its arrogance, entitlement and blindness.

Oh, boo hoo. You are making this about anti-Asian racism when the school being discussed is over 70% Asian? Would you like this and all of the other schools of this nature to be 100% Asian? Just because a kid is Asian and does well on a test does not entitle him or her to go to any school they want. Welcome to the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having attended one of these highly selective schools as one of a few AA kids, I can tell you that after a while the numbers become self-fulfilling. You see that only 7 got in, you now have no interest in being one of only 7, so when its your time to apply, you go for comfort instead of challenge. Remember that high school, beyond education, is also hormones, social, friends, relationships with teachers, dances, environment. Being one of a few is no fun in the middle of all the "do I fit in". It takes a kid with serious support, independence and will to want to be one of a few. And let's be honest, if you can be valedictorian in a less rigorous place, that beats being in the middle in a more rigorous place as far as college applications go. That's the calculation some make.

I was wondering if that's why the test rate for whites was relatively low.

Here is Fairfax, if you don't get into TJ, you still get to go to a pretty solid to amazing base high school. That's where NYC is failing its students and where attention needs to be placed. Also, there are obvious failings in the school system at the early years if only 7 African American kids get in. 7! People aren't saying make the school half Black or even 20% or 10%. But we can do better than 7. The NYC school system should be embarrassed. If you are blaming Asian American families or Black families then you have a problem.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. It's an issue with the system (although I think "the system" expands beyond the schools), not just that some parents are "lazy" or other parents "over prep".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Asian-American here who oddly attended both very academic schools and what was known as "a magnet school for athletes." The truth is, test prep and asian parenting are nothing near as insane as sports prep. So if anyone thinks test prep is abusive to five year olds and specialized schools are wrong, they should first look at the travel sports system and elite high school sports programs and dismantle that or turn it into a lottery lol.

+1