TJ - which middle schools had students accepted in 2017

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

[Anonymous]

What constitutes cheating is not up for discussion... it is clearly laid out in the honor code. https://www.tjhsst.edu/abouttj/integrity/honorcode.html
Including that if students have a question, they need to ask the teacher.
I wouldn't let my younger kid submit my older kid's project or paper as his own. Why would he look at old tests? It would be an unfair advantage

[Anonymous]

Can we get back to the original topic, please!! Anyone has the breakdown of TJ admission by middle schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

Where are these rules written down? is it anywhere documented that preparing with old test papers is cheating? if not, then it cannot be called a rule. If it is documented at the state, county, school level, then I agree if anyone violates it is breaking the rule. Absent that, it is more of a honor code, and which could be interpreted as nice to have but not a rule to follow. It is like saying, everyone is expeccted to pay taxes but they are allowed to use the legal ways and mean to reduce their taxes, so long as it is not illegal to reduce taxes that way they can do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

Where are these rules written down? is it anywhere documented that preparing with old test papers is cheating? if not, then it cannot be called a rule. If it is documented at the state, county, school level, then I agree if anyone violates it is breaking the rule. Absent that, it is more of a honor code, and which could be interpreted as nice to have but not a rule to follow. It is like saying, everyone is expeccted to pay taxes but they are allowed to use the legal ways and mean to reduce their taxes, so long as it is not illegal to reduce taxes that way they can do it.

Read the link posted above. If kids aren't sure if something constitutes cheating, they need to ask their teachers specific questions about what constitutes cheating.

Do you really want kids to grow up thinking, "Well, as long as there is not a written rule saying I can't do X, I can go ahead and do it." The teen years are when kids are developing their ethics and morals. They need to develop pride in understanding right from wrong and take that sense of integrity into adulthood. And an honor code is a lot more than a "nice to have." Honor codes are an aid to kids in learning right from wrong and how to comport themselves as honourable human beings.

It wouldn't occur to me, in the 21st century, to go to another country and engage in activities that are okay at home, but not in that country. If I did, I would be seen as culturally insensitive at best and possibly in jail at worst.

TJ parents need to let their kids know that they will not tolerate cheating. It will eventually harm the reputation of the school if they don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

[Anonymous]

PP here. I have one fundamental question for which I would like to get an answer. There are two forms of using the old test papers:

1. Teacher gives a test, kids who took the test get out of it and then shares with friends on hallway. This is clearly cheating.
2. Student goes to a training center to learn XYZ subject. Training center gives out tests using questions created from old TJ tests. Makes assessment on student readiness on subject.

Is #2 cheating? sounds like it is. But, this is a murky subject. Is obtaining old TJ test questions not allowed? if so, how did they obtain it? that need to stop. Also, TJ needs to make it very clear training centers should not try to obtain old test papers and give it to their students, and if they do so it is illegal and there will be consequences to the owners.

If it is not illegal to obtain old TJ test papers, then how is it not cheating? especially since the student did not actively pursue it, as all they are doing is attend a training center to enrich their knowledge. For instance, some of the popular TJ teachers are teaching summer courses at some training centers. Should TJ bar teachers from doing that? What are the chance that this teacher when making assessments will give out similar question as they do in TJ? In this instance, the teacher do no need old papers as they just give it from their memory, and they are the ones creating questions for the real test as well. This gets very murky as you can see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

Not just 13-14 years, momre than that, many are here 20-25 years. But the educational training runs deep. What you are not understanding is that, most Asians here have assimilated over that many years, however, their experience about education runs very deep and it is hard to change, especially since many Asian families view American education as weak in Math and Science, a notion that is further confirned by American media itself. We keep hearing about the education standards failing in America, and Asian families aren't willing to follow the American norms based on that impression.

[Anonymous]

Yes, number 2 above is cheating. A TJ teacher told me that kids in her class had been asked by outside businesses to memorize test questions and tell the business the questions. this teacher has told the kids that this practice is unacceptable and wrong and has informed classes that they should not memorize and repeat test questions to anyone.

TJ has no control over outside businesses, but they do have supervisory responsibility for the students, and they can implement appropriate consequences for the students. Parents can help by being supportive of TJ if their child is one who is caught cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

Not just 13-14 years, momre than that, many are here 20-25 years. But the educational training runs deep. What you are not understanding is that, most Asians here have assimilated over that many years, however, their experience about education runs very deep and it is hard to change, especially since many Asian families view American education as weak in Math and Science, a notion that is further confirned by American media itself. We keep hearing about the education standards failing in America, and Asian families aren't willing to follow the American norms based on that impression.

But if kids cheat, they won't really be learning. They will only be learning how to answer questions on a test to get a high grade. High grades don't always correlate with true learning.

[Anonymous]

For those who keep repeating the line - parents need to tell children it is not okay to cheat - like a broken reccord, we are talking past each other. It is not going to help anyone. I can tell my child it is not okay to cheat, and I can give all the wisdom and moral ethics in the world, however, when the pressure gets high in a school like TJ, will they still be able to hold up and resist? you are expecting parents have full control over their teenage children, and you should know better. So, instead of blaming it all on parents, responsibility falls on TJ for creating this pressure cooker situation. Why do they allow kids to accelerate so much in many subjects and why do they create such impossible test standards? TJ need to look carefully at what they are doing, and it is not just parents or kids who are responsible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

Not just 13-14 years, momre than that, many are here 20-25 years. But the educational training runs deep. What you are not understanding is that, most Asians here have assimilated over that many years, however, their experience about education runs very deep and it is hard to change, especially since many Asian families view American education as weak in Math and Science, a notion that is further confirned by American media itself. We keep hearing about the education standards failing in America, and Asian families aren't willing to follow the American norms based on that impression.

But if kids cheat, they won't really be learning. They will only be learning how to answer questions on a test to get a high grade. High grades don't always correlate with true learning.

And are you saying that there are parents who are fully aware that the rules about cheating are different here, but continue to do it because... they feel like it?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those who keep repeating the line - parents need to tell children it is not okay to cheat - like a broken reccord, we are talking past each other. It is not going to help anyone. I can tell my child it is not okay to cheat, and I can give all the wisdom and moral ethics in the world, however, when the pressure gets high in a school like TJ, will they still be able to hold up and resist? you are expecting parents have full control over their teenage children, and you should know better. So, instead of blaming it all on parents, responsibility falls on TJ for creating this pressure cooker situation. Why do they allow kids to accelerate so much in many subjects and why do they create such impossible test standards? TJ need to look carefully at what they are doing, and it is not just parents or kids who are responsible.

It takes a village.

Parents, school admins, teachers, and students all need to work together. Kids need to be hearing the same message from all sides. Yes, doing the right thing is often difficult, but we can help and support our kids while they develop their own strong moral and ethical muscles.

And it is not only TJ that is encouraging students to take more challenging classes. Let's face it, many parents out there are pushing their kids to take as many AP and post-AP classes as they possibly can. TJ does not bear sole responsibility for creating a pressure cooker situation, by any means. If some kids are taking so many difficult classes that they think cheating is the only way to survive, they need to drop back a bit, not cheat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those who keep repeating the line - parents need to tell children it is not okay to cheat - like a broken reccord, we are talking past each other. It is not going to help anyone. I can tell my child it is not okay to cheat, and I can give all the wisdom and moral ethics in the world, however, when the pressure gets high in a school like TJ, will they still be able to hold up and resist? you are expecting parents have full control over their teenage children, and you should know better. So, instead of blaming it all on parents, responsibility falls on TJ for creating this pressure cooker situation. Why do they allow kids to accelerate so much in many subjects and why do they create such impossible test standards? TJ need to look carefully at what they are doing, and it is not just parents or kids who are responsible.

Where is this pressure coming from? Are you saying it's the students themselves? Might I suggest the "pressure" more likely is coming from home. And who is allowing the kids to accelerate? Again, I think it most likely the parents? And impossible test standards? How about one kid has copies of old tests (not given out by the teacher) and another one doesn't. Maybe the one who doesn't have the old tests, but understands the material and studies hard. Why shouldn't that student be rewarded with a fair and accurate grade based on what he truly knows?

Signed,

Parent of a white kid at TJ who is doing just fine at TJ without cheating