TJ - which middle schools had students accepted in 2017

[Anonymous]

Doing fine at TJ means different to many Asian families than it does to others. Some of them aren't content unless their kid is taking BC Calc as freshman or at the minimum sophomore, anything else is considered as behind. My child did not take Geometry over summer and evveryday came home and said all friends are taking and he needs to take to keep up, we decided not to let him do that and instead do as full year course. He is considered behind in math even though he has two HS honors math credits by the time MS is over, and since he isn't in a position for taking RS1 then placement test to get over math 4 and into math 5 by freshman year, he is behind. Not for us though, we don't consider it that way, neither do my child, but general tendency among many are like that. So, doing well means different things to those who are hyperaccelerating. The main goal for these families is Ivy league admission. I know this because I have talked to many Asian parents, and although no one ever acctually admits it, you can figure out. Some parents consider going to VT and W&M as failure after going to TJ, to them base school was enough for that, so why did my child go to TJ is the attitude. I know many American families aren't like that, may be there are some, but they may be exceptions. Among Asians too these are probably not the majority, but in general I think Asian parent push harder because they believe that is the only way their children will get good opportunities.

[Anonymous]

So, among all the kids in general, without regard for cultural background,* who is responsible when kids cheat? Parents, kids, TJ staff, teachers? I've seen all of the above blamed here.

I think it comes down what I posted below. We can't slough off the blame on others, we all have to do our part. And I think the only way TJ can do its part is if they know that the parents will back them up, every time, and not make excuses for kids.

Anonymous wrote:
It takes a village.

Parents, school admins, teachers, and students all need to work together. Kids need to be hearing the same message from all sides. Yes, doing the right thing is often difficult, but we can help and support our kids while they develop their own strong moral and ethical muscles.

And it is not only TJ that is encouraging students to take more challenging classes. Let's face it, many parents out there are pushing their kids to take as many AP and post-AP classes as they possibly can. TJ does not bear sole responsibility for creating a pressure cooker situation, by any means. If some kids are taking so many difficult classes that they think cheating is the only way to survive, they need to drop back a bit, not cheat.

* I think we should stop blaming cultural background or using that as an excuse. People from countries that drive on the left don't come here and try to do that here. When you're in a different place, you follow the rules of that place.

[Anonymous]

TJ is going to make changes when colleges start rejecting their applicants. Colleges do not want cheaters. They are getting students who are selling themselves as A students who would be B students if not for cheating. It's going to catch up with them at some point.

Cultural differences are not an excuse. I know that teachers and admin are very clear about using old tests and sharing test questions. It's not ambiguous to the students at all. My elementary school son didn't know an answer to a question on a HW, so I asked if he wanted me to google it to find out - he said "NO WAY!" My teacher says never to google things to find out. So if elementary school kids are getting the message that work needs to be solely their own, why can't TJ kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, among all the kids in general, without regard for cultural background,* who is responsible when kids cheat? Parents, kids, TJ staff, teachers? I've seen all of the above blamed here.

I think it comes down what I posted below. We can't slough off the blame on others, we all have to do our part. And I think the only way TJ can do its part is if they know that the parents will back them up, every time, and not make excuses for kids.

Agreed. But the school should take the lead and set the direction while looking for support. The kids are responsible for cheating because they are the perpetrators. Can't blame anyone else. Allowing this to happen without consequence is the school environment. They need to own the prevention part of the deal (working together with parents, etc of course).

Anonymous wrote:
* I think we should stop blaming cultural background or using that as an excuse. People from countries that drive on the left don't come here and try to do that here. When you're in a different place, you follow the rules of that place.

Exactly. However, people will do what they can get away with if rules are not enforced. First make them, then enforce them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:TJ is going to make changes when colleges start rejecting their applicants. Colleges do not want cheaters. They are getting students who are selling themselves as A students who would be B students if not for cheating. It's going to catch up with them at some point.

Cultural differences are not an excuse. I know that teachers and admin are very clear about using old tests and sharing test questions. It's not ambiguous to the students at all. My elementary school son didn't know an answer to a question on a HW, so I asked if he wanted me to google it to find out - he said "NO WAY!" My teacher says never to google things to find out. So if elementary school kids are getting the message that work needs to be solely their own, why can't TJ kids?

This is so stupid. No wonder why American eduction system is failing to create more competitive students ready for STEM jobs, and have to import from other countries. If you do not know the answer, just don't do it, and who is going to teach them the correct answer, the teacher? good luck with that. Most teacher's are poor in teaching and do not do a good job and they are also overworked and under qualified. Students need to do their due diligence in finding the answers if they were not taught, and if you do not do it when you are attempting to work on a problem then chances are you will forget to do it next day.

Gosh are you people really nuts. Get a clue, parents and students need to work on their own in addition to the teaching. This is very much needed in TJ as well. I guess you all want to dumb down the education system, and eliminate all the Asians from that system. Go ahead, dumb it down, close the borders, and let America become less competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ is going to make changes when colleges start rejecting their applicants. Colleges do not want cheaters. They are getting students who are selling themselves as A students who would be B students if not for cheating. It's going to catch up with them at some point.

Cultural differences are not an excuse. I know that teachers and admin are very clear about using old tests and sharing test questions. It's not ambiguous to the students at all. My elementary school son didn't know an answer to a question on a HW, so I asked if he wanted me to google it to find out - he said "NO WAY!" My teacher says never to google things to find out. So if elementary school kids are getting the message that work needs to be solely their own, why can't TJ kids?

This is so stupid. No wonder why American eduction system is failing to create more competitive students ready for STEM jobs, and have to import from other countries. If you do not know the answer, just don't do it, and who is going to teach them the correct answer, the teacher? good luck with that. Most teacher's are poor in teaching and do not do a good job and they are also overworked and under qualified. Students need to do their due diligence in finding the answers if they were not taught, and if you do not do it when you are attempting to work on a problem then chances are you will forget to do it next day.

Gosh are you people really nuts. Get a clue, parents and students need to work on their own in addition to the teaching. This is very much needed in TJ as well. I guess you all want to dumb down the education system, and eliminate all the Asians from that system. Go ahead, dumb it down, close the borders, and let America become less competitive.

+1
After years of dumbing down and brainwashing, Americans have lost their reasoning and critical thinking abilities. All there left is their huge ego and sense of entitlement.
Sad!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, among all the kids in general, without regard for cultural background,* who is responsible when kids cheat? Parents, kids, TJ staff, teachers? I've seen all of the above blamed here.

I think it comes down what I posted below. We can't slough off the blame on others, we all have to do our part. And I think the only way TJ can do its part is if they know that the parents will back them up, every time, and not make excuses for kids.

Agreed. But the school should take the lead and set the direction while looking for support. The kids are responsible for cheating because they are the perpetrators. Can't blame anyone else. Allowing this to happen without consequence is the school environment. They need to own the prevention part of the deal (working together with parents, etc of course).

Anonymous wrote:
* I think we should stop blaming cultural background or using that as an excuse. People from countries that drive on the left don't come here and try to do that here. When you're in a different place, you follow the rules of that place.

Exactly. However, people will do what they can get away with if rules are not enforced. First make them, then enforce them.

There are rules. I think part of the problem is that the consequences are not strong severe enough and the bigger part of the problem is that not all parents are backing up the school when kids get caught. Too many parents making excuses and blaming the school and the teachers instead of their own children.

[Anonymous]

My question is how will schools or teachers know that some kids have access to old tests. If these students know it is against the honor code, they will simply keep quiet and chug along. The only way to make it fair for all students is to have teachers change their tests every so often.

I know, I know, some of you will insist that it's not the teachers' problem to fix, but let's be honest here, it is very unlikely that these students will stop. They will study the old tests at home and keep quiet about it, and none of their teachers will be the wiser.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My question is how will schools or teachers know that some kids have access to old tests. If these students know it is against the honor code, they will simply keep quiet and chug along. The only way to make it fair for all students is to have teachers change their tests every so often.

I know, I know, some of you will insist that it's not the teachers' problem to fix, but let's be honest here, it is very unlikely that these students will stop. They will study the old tests at home and keep quiet about it, and none of their teachers will be the wiser.

Some kids will get caught. When the community see that TJ will follow through with consequences, they might realize that any possible benefit is not worth the price of getting caught.

And this is why parents need to be on board. Parents need to accept the rules and follow them. Parents can't be secretly allowing kids to break the rules of the school here just to get an advantage over other kids.

And another poster made the point that if colleges start viewing kids from TJ differently because of cheating issues, it will affect all the kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ is going to make changes when colleges start rejecting their applicants. Colleges do not want cheaters. They are getting students who are selling themselves as A students who would be B students if not for cheating. It's going to catch up with them at some point.

Cultural differences are not an excuse. I know that teachers and admin are very clear about using old tests and sharing test questions. It's not ambiguous to the students at all. My elementary school son didn't know an answer to a question on a HW, so I asked if he wanted me to google it to find out - he said "NO WAY!" My teacher says never to google things to find out. So if elementary school kids are getting the message that work needs to be solely their own, why can't TJ kids?

This is so stupid. No wonder why American eduction system is failing to create more competitive students ready for STEM jobs, and have to import from other countries. If you do not know the answer, just don't do it, and who is going to teach them the correct answer, the teacher? good luck with that. Most teacher's are poor in teaching and do not do a good job and they are also overworked and under qualified. Students need to do their due diligence in finding the answers if they were not taught, and if you do not do it when you are attempting to work on a problem then chances are you will forget to do it next day.

Gosh are you people really nuts. Get a clue, parents and students need to work on their own in addition to the teaching. This is very much needed in TJ as well. I guess you all want to dumb down the education system, and eliminate all the Asians from that system. Go ahead, dumb it down, close the borders, and let America become less competitive.

Nice excuse. There is a big difference between looking something up for homework and cheating on tests. I totally agree with you that kids should show some initiative to figure their homework out rather than expecting the teacher to teach each kid to their level, so I think not looking up an answer on homework is silly and not in the spirit of an honor code (unless it's a take home test and they were instructed not to get help). However, getting test questions and answers from other kids is cheating. It should be an honor code violation and go on the kid's transcript. Colleges should see it so they know they are not getting what the child advertises (because the kid isn't really an A student if they cheated to get the A). That would put an end to it quickly! I have no respect for kids who get As at TJ by cheating and they should not be rewarded for that behavior by getting into top schools. By the way, parents whose kids are getting As by cheating, take a look in the mirror. Perhaps they are cheating because of pressure they receive from you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

When I was in law school, the final step in studying for a final was going over old tests. Some professors even allowed you to write up answers and turn them in for feedback prior to the final. I have to admit that, with that as my background, I would have assumed that any old test that isn't the actual test to be given would be ok. Are kids buying tests thinking it's the test they will get? I've always found that practice tests help me to figure out my weak areas. I guess if the school uses the same test year after year, then they need to secure those tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

When I was in law school, the final step in studying for a final was going over old tests. Some professors even allowed you to write up answers and turn them in for feedback prior to the final. I have to admit that, with that as my background, I would have assumed that any old test that isn't the actual test to be given would be ok. Are kids buying tests thinking it's the test they will get? I've always found that practice tests help me to figure out my weak areas. I guess if the school uses the same test year after year, then they need to secure those tests.

And this is in 'murica! Where's the PP that talked about culture, wrong side driving, what she/he grew up with as the norm, blah, blah, blah. This post describes what happens at law school in America. Looks like practising with old tests is not a "dirty asian practice".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs.

Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm. How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies? Are the teachers and the school aware of this? If so, what have they done to fix it? Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it? Tell me that and I will support it. I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan. The school should. If they don't they suffer the consequences.

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.

i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms. We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.

That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.

When I was in law school, the final step in studying for a final was going over old tests. Some professors even allowed you to write up answers and turn them in for feedback prior to the final. I have to admit that, with that as my background, I would have assumed that any old test that isn't the actual test to be given would be ok. Are kids buying tests thinking it's the test they will get? I've always found that practice tests help me to figure out my weak areas. I guess if the school uses the same test year after year, then they need to secure those tests.

And this is in 'murica! Where's the PP that talked about culture, wrong side driving, what she/he grew up with as the norm, blah, blah, blah. This post describes what happens at law school in America. Looks like practising with old tests is not a "dirty asian practice".

I don't know about any particular race, but if the school says it isn't allowed, then it's cheating. I agree that the school should consider not using the same test over and over (lazy teachers?) or secure them.

[Anonymous]

Have any teachers come out and told kids they don't want them to study from old tests and that constitute cheating?

From my time in a professional college, we (white, asian, blacks, basically everybody) have studied old tests as a way to pinpoint what we need to work on. It wasn't a big deal as everybody has access to old tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Have any teachers come out and told kids they don't want them to study from old tests and that constitute cheating?

From my time in a professional college, we (white, asian, blacks, basically everybody) have studied old tests as a way to pinpoint what we need to work on. It wasn't a big deal as everybody has access to old tests.

One TJ teacher in a STEM subject has told me that he has done this, and also warned his classes that they should not be memorizing questions and repeating them to outside businesses that collect test questions. He did this going back a number of years, so this is not something new.