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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]We need to teach kids that studying from old exams without express permission from the teacher if the course is cheating. If the teacher hands out old exam copies to study from, that's fine. If one is getting old exam questions from another student or from someone who has "files" of old exam questions, it is cheating.

The above is the definition I and many of the parents I have spoken with grew up with and it is not that difficult to understand. We can't tell our kids that it is up to the teachers to keep them from cheating; our kids need to be developing their own inner compasses to determine right from wrong. Blaming teachers for kids cheating confuses kids and makes cheating an issue that is murkier than it needs to be.

I think part of the problem is that some kids don't realize that asking friends about questions on a test or studying old tests from sources other than their teacher is cheating. I'm not sure why they don't know this at their age, but it needs to be made clear and then backed up by consequences.

It will hurt all the kids at TJ if the school gets a reputation as a place where kids cheat to get high GPAs. 
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Are you one of the lazy TJ teachers by any chance?

You "grew up" with a particular norm (and maybe others did as well) but that doesn't make it the universal norm.  How do the old test papers get outside of TJ and into the hands of the selling companies?  Are the teachers and the school aware of this?  If so, what have they done to fix it?   Repeating on every thread that it's not the teachers job and trying to define cheating to suit your mental model takes us nowhere.

What are TJ and the teachers doing about it?  Tell me that and I will support it.  I can't (nor you) can convince all parents to come up with a single plan.  The school should.  If they don't they suffer the consequences.[/quote]

No, I am not a TJ teacher, but I am a parent of a recent TJ grad, so I have some knowledge of this through my child's insights.

The norm that I grew up with in terms of defining cheating is pretty common. Every school and university I attended had this standard, as did every school and university my spouse attended. Our kids have gone to schools and universities all over the US, and every one of those schools also had the same norm. Defining studying from old tests without the teacher's permission as cheating is not some personal "mental model" of mine: it is standard in many schools and universities all over the US.

If someone outside of school offers to sell you old tests that they keep in a personal file, doesn't that sound a bit fishy? Why should the teachers and the school have to "fix" the fact that people are obtaining old test copies without permission? Why not just teach kids how to avoid cheating and provide consequences for breaking the rules?

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This is about understanding other cultures and norms. In many Asian countries, including India and China, studying for a test often means going through old question papers and preparing to answer them. This is one method of study after the student has completed the text book and the teacher's notes. Preparing from old test papers is the final prep part, and is a very important step to ensure an A+ grade vs a lower grade which could mean a huge difference in the  circumstances those kids face. It is hard for people in United States to understand this. So what happens when the parents of these children who were educated in that method comes over here, they try to follow what has worked for them. Understand that in these cultures, it is not cheating to study from old test papers. It is just another method of preparation. More needs to be done to understand and integrate people coming here from other cultures. Especially since the world is becoming more integrated, instead of arguing this is how it is here always and so that is how it should be. You can rail all you want, but it is impossible to make someone who grew up in that culture to accept what you are calling as cheating when all they think they are doing is final preparation which is perfectly legit. Perhaps understanding the cultural differences and then trying to bridge that gap, i.e, finding a reasonable way to solve it, it the way to go. Not forcing down on them by saying, tough luck, you are here and this is how we did it in our parents time and so you better adapt, or else leave. It doesn't work that way in today;s multicultural society. I know some people wish things were the way they were in the 60's, and I am not talking to that crowd. I am trying to explain the background for anyone reasonable trying to understand the problem. As full disclosure, I am someone who grew up in one of those cultures, but never prepared using old test papers, but many of my friends did. As a result my grades were not as great as theirs, and I did not go to elite schools some of my friends went, but in the end I ended up doing just as much as well as they did in their careers post-education.
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i understand this, but TJ is a school in the United States, and thus follows US norms.  We follow the rules, laws, and customs of a country when we are in that country.

I like to vacation in Ocean City, New Jersey. It is a dry city, which means no alcohol is sold there. If I am a store owner in OC and I decide to make a few extra dollars by selling some nice wine, I will be fined because it is illegal to sell alcohol there. I can't argue, "Oh, they're selling alcohol in Somer's Point, just across the causeway there, so why can't I?" We need to follow the rules of the place where we find ourselves, not the norms for a different city or country.

It is great to celebrate and appreciate other cultures, but not to the point where we allow kids to get away with cheating because they or their families don't understand that the rules are different here. I would assume most of these kids have been in US schools long enough to have learned the norms here and I believe that most of the kids of Asian background at TJ were born here in the US, so I don't think it is realistic to say that the Asian kids and parents don't know that the rules are different here.

I'm all for a three strike process where the first infraction just gets a 0 on the test or paper involved in the cheating. That is essentially a warning and serves as an educational moment for the student and the parents. Second infraction, an F for the course involved, and on the third, the child is sent back to the regular school. I think word would get around very quickly and parents would start monitoring their kids to make sure they're not cheating. TJ needs to set the expectations, but the parents need to back them up and not make excuses for their children by saying that they don't understand what cheating is.

Would kids still cheat? Sure, because some kids are always pushing boundaries and limits and they will have to learn. But the majority of kids and parents will have a better understanding and will get on board for the overall betterment of TJ.
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That is all fine, and I am not condoning that behavior. What I am trying to point out is that it is hard to convince people who actually do not see preparing with old test papers as a violation, they just see it as a way to prepare for tests. Another way to look at it is, they view it as a pre-test test to see where the kid falls. If the kid is able to score a 90+ on such sample tests, then parents view it as the student ready for the real test. If not, they go back to more studies. Some of it is probably unintentional, coule be, I don't know because I don't anyone who is cheating and do not understand the mind set. It is possible they use old test papers to practice to see their readiness, is that cheating? accodring to some off you here any preparation is cheating. That isn't a reasonable expecctation, and I can assure you knowing many Asian families they are not going to stop this beccause they completely do not view this as cheating. Again, I am not condoning it, just saying you can't talk two different languages and hope the other party understand.[/quote]

Have a lot of TJ families been in this country for such a short time that they are unaware that the rules are different here? I was of the understanding that most of the kids were Asian-American, born here in the US. if that is the case, the parents would have been here for at least 13 or 14 years, which seems to be plenty of time to learn about cultural differences.
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