NOVA Stats for spring '17 UVA, W & M & Tech acceptances (or not)

[Anonymous]

If you are at an IB Diploma school, it is considered the "most rigorous" curriculum available even if the school also offers AP classes, like Robinson. If you don't do the IB Diploma, then you are at a disadvantage in college admissions. If you at just an AP school, it come down to the # of APs taken as to whether you get that "most rigorous" box checked.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB kids also have required CAS hours and tons of writing assignments that are graded overseas like the EE, TOK essay and Paper 1, 2 and 3s. You cant compare and IB diploma to a few AP classes.

The extended essay is the only significant difference between an IB diploma and a student completing a full load of AP and honors courses. CAS hours are no different than the extracurricular activities that any student aiming for a competitive college would pursue. Paper 1, 2, and 3 are the components of the end of course IB exam, just as there are end of course AP exams with multiple sections (generally only 2).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The IB diploma requires 3 HL classes and 3 SL classes. SL classes are equivalent to high school honors classes and not college level work. The IBO's own literature states this. So a student who receives the IB diploma has taken the equivalent of 3 AP classes and 3 honors classes, plus the extended essay. It is not equivalent to taking 6 AP classes. A better reference point for the percentage of students receiving the IB diploma at AP schools would be the percentage of seniors who have earned passing scores in 3-4 AP classes. In the past I have seen reports detailing the number of students receiving AP scholar awards from each school, but I cannot find this currently.

I think that for students who would end up taking 3-4 AP courses during high school, the IB and the AP curriculums would both provide similar levels of instruction. But for the smaller group of students who can successfully take 6+ AP courses during high school, some of their courses would not be as rigorous if they pursued the IB diploma.

Several of the IB classes are 2 years long. There is no AP equivalent.

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of AP and IB diploma students admitted to good Virginia schools. The only error here is thinking that being an IB diploma student or taking a certain number of AP classes should guarantee admission to specific schools. It's sad when parents push their kids into programs like IB or into taking all AP courses without understanding this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The IB diploma requires 3 HL classes and 3 SL classes. SL classes are equivalent to high school honors classes and not college level work. The IBO's own literature states this. So a student who receives the IB diploma has taken the equivalent of 3 AP classes and 3 honors classes, plus the extended essay. It is not equivalent to taking 6 AP classes. A better reference point for the percentage of students receiving the IB diploma at AP schools would be the percentage of seniors who have earned passing scores in 3-4 AP classes. In the past I have seen reports detailing the number of students receiving AP scholar awards from each school, but I cannot find this currently.

I think that for students who would end up taking 3-4 AP courses during high school, the IB and the AP curriculums would both provide similar levels of instruction. But for the smaller group of students who can successfully take 6+ AP courses during high school, some of their courses would not be as rigorous if they pursued the IB diploma.

Several of the IB classes are 2 years long. There is no AP equivalent.

The AP equivalent is simply taking another advanced year-long class. Taking a two-year course sequence in high school limits your options.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of AP and IB diploma students admitted to good Virginia schools. The only error here is thinking that being an IB diploma student or taking a certain number of AP classes should guarantee admission to specific schools. It's sad when parents push their kids into programs like IB or into taking all AP courses without understanding this.

Agree. IMO one of the main benefits of IB is that it is that if you do well enough, all colleges will consider your HS rigor to be acceptable. It provides a limit on what is "enough" that AP does not have...which lead to the crazy escalation of kids wanting more AP credits than the next guy. Collegeboard is raking in the bucks. HS should not be an endurance event.

[Anonymous]

That's an ignorant statement. IB is a complete curriculum as compared to AP which is a collection of classes and exams. In addition to the Extended Essay, students are required to have 150 hours of CAS activities (creativity, activity and service) which generally force a student to perform in at least one area that they might not if left to their own preferences. There is also the Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) and a requirement for 5 yrs of language. IB courses are writing intensive. You note that the exams are significantly more intensive (two (SL) or three (HL) papers plus the internal assessment (externally moderated). IB exams and essays are graded externally and the comparative group is the approximately 145,000 students worldwide who take the exams annually. These grades are forced to an approximately normal distribution (see pg 8 of the document referenced below).

See this document for the IB Statistical Survey from last spring www.ibo.org/contentassets/.../dp-statistical-bulletin-may-2016-en.pdf

[Anonymous]

just for clarity, my comment at 15:01 was in response to 14:34

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are at an IB Diploma school, it is considered the "most rigorous" curriculum available even if the school also offers AP classes, like Robinson. If you don't do the IB Diploma, then you are at a disadvantage in college admissions. If you at just an AP school, it come down to the # of APs taken as to whether you get that "most rigorous" box checked.

I think that if the high school also offers a full AP curriculum in addition to IB you could do one or the other w/o penalty and get into top schools. But at the IB schools, it appears that highly motivated students should pursue the diploma. (Does Robinson also have a full AP curriculum similar to the AP high schools in FCPS?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That's an ignorant statement. IB is a complete curriculum as compared to AP which is a collection of classes and exams. In addition to the Extended Essay, students are required to have 150 hours of CAS activities (creativity, activity and service) which generally force a student to perform in at least one area that they might not if left to their own preferences. There is also the Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) and a requirement for 5 yrs of language. IB courses are writing intensive. You note that the exams are significantly more intensive (two (SL) or three (HL) papers plus the internal assessment (externally moderated). IB exams and essays are graded externally and the comparative group is the approximately 145,000 students worldwide who take the exams annually. These grades are forced to an approximately normal distribution (see pg 8 of the document referenced below).

See this document for the IB Statistical Survey from last spring www.ibo.org/contentassets/.../dp-statistical-bulletin-may-2016-en.pdf

150 hours of activities over 2 years averages out to under 13 minutes a day on activities. I am quite confident that students aiming for competitive colleges easily meet this requirement regardless of the IB diploma requirement. AP courses at the schools I have worked at are plenty writing intensive (in my experience equal to or slightly more so than IB classes, but every school and teacher is different). AP foreign languages also require 4-5 years of study. (And students can take an IB ab initio foreign language exam with less than 5 years of study, so the IB diploma does not technically require 5 years of language.) IB exams generally take more hours to complete, no doubt about that, but time does not equal intensity. Compare Math SL and Calc AB for a particularly pronounced difference.

Over 2.5 million students take AP exams, and the score distribution varies by subject (see https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/research/2016/Student-Score-Distributions-2016.pdf). An end of course assessment graded externally is the most obvious similarity between the two programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you are at an IB Diploma school, it is considered the "most rigorous" curriculum available even if the school also offers AP classes, like Robinson. If you don't do the IB Diploma, then you are at a disadvantage in college admissions. If you at just an AP school, it come down to the # of APs taken as to whether you get that "most rigorous" box checked.

I think that if the high school also offers a full AP curriculum in addition to IB you could do one or the other w/o penalty and get into top schools. But at the IB schools, it appears that highly motivated students should pursue the diploma. (Does Robinson also have a full AP curriculum similar to the AP high schools in FCPS?)

Robinson does not offer a full AP curriculum, although it has more AP courses than any other IB school in FCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That's an ignorant statement. IB is a complete curriculum as compared to AP which is a collection of classes and exams. In addition to the Extended Essay, students are required to have 150 hours of CAS activities (creativity, activity and service) which generally force a student to perform in at least one area that they might not if left to their own preferences. There is also the Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) and a requirement for 5 yrs of language. IB courses are writing intensive. You note that the exams are significantly more intensive (two (SL) or three (HL) papers plus the internal assessment (externally moderated). IB exams and essays are graded externally and the comparative group is the approximately 145,000 students worldwide who take the exams annually. These grades are forced to an approximately normal distribution (see pg 8 of the document referenced below).

See this document for the IB Statistical Survey from last spring www.ibo.org/contentassets/.../dp-statistical-bulletin-may-2016-en.pdf

Your cut-and-paste illustrates that the IBO has a marketing apparatus just as diligent as the College Board.

Personally, I'm most swayed in favor of AP by the fact that the top schools in FCPS are all AP and there is no demand from parents at those schools to convert to IB, as well as by the comparatively low number of National Merit Semifinalists in FCPS who attend the eight IB schools. It's little surprise that more FCPS students attending UVA and W&M are graduates of the AP schools.

[Anonymous]

Anecdotal:

Both of my AP kids roomed in college with kids from IB schools. At least one of them had the IB diploma--and I think both did. Both IB kids said that they thought the AP kids got a better deal. The AP kids certainly had more college credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's an ignorant statement. IB is a complete curriculum as compared to AP which is a collection of classes and exams. In addition to the Extended Essay, students are required to have 150 hours of CAS activities (creativity, activity and service) which generally force a student to perform in at least one area that they might not if left to their own preferences. There is also the Theory of Knowledge course (TOK) and a requirement for 5 yrs of language. IB courses are writing intensive. You note that the exams are significantly more intensive (two (SL) or three (HL) papers plus the internal assessment (externally moderated). IB exams and essays are graded externally and the comparative group is the approximately 145,000 students worldwide who take the exams annually. These grades are forced to an approximately normal distribution (see pg 8 of the document referenced below).

See this document for the IB Statistical Survey from last spring www.ibo.org/contentassets/.../dp-statistical-bulletin-may-2016-en.pdf

150 hours of activities over 2 years averages out to under 13 minutes a day on activities. I am quite confident that students aiming for competitive colleges easily meet this requirement regardless of the IB diploma requirement. AP courses at the schools I have worked at are plenty writing intensive (in my experience equal to or slightly more so than IB classes, but every school and teacher is different). AP foreign languages also require 4-5 years of study. (And students can take an IB ab initio foreign language exam with less than 5 years of study, so the IB diploma does not technically require 5 years of language.) IB exams generally take more hours to complete, no doubt about that, but time does not equal intensity. Compare Math SL and Calc AB for a particularly pronounced difference.

Over 2.5 million students take AP exams, and the score distribution varies by subject (see https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/research/2016/Student-Score-Distributions-2016.pdf). An end of course assessment graded externally is the most obvious similarity between the two programs.

Sorry to beat the horse... but I was under the impression that if my rising 8th grader didn't take a foreign lang. in 8th grade she would be out of luck to obtain a full IB diploma. Are you saying that isn't the case? FWIW, my rising 8th grader has no idea what IB is and has no interest in taking for. lang. this coming year (despite my advice). But, I hate to see IB lost as an option if she learns about it in a year's time and wants to pursue it. There is no discussion about IB planning in our MS at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anecdotal:

Both of my AP kids roomed in college with kids from IB schools. At least one of them had the IB diploma--and I think both did. Both IB kids said that they thought the AP kids got a better deal. The AP kids certainly had more college credit.

I think it feels like a "better deal" because the extra-curriculars for the AP kids were voluntary, whereas CAS is prescribed for IB diploma candidates. Even if the kids end up doing the same activities, the IB kids feel like they are being forced to jump through hoops established by the IBO. There isn't nearly as much disparity in terms of college credit as there was a decade ago.