NCS and St. Albans misconduct

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what particular off campus event Vance's letter to the STA community is in regards to?

It has nothing to do with some middle school dance

People really need to read the letters if they are curious about this situation and have not read the documents yet. The letters were ultimately in response to, and reference, a Google Doc created by NCS students to document inappropriate/insensitive/wrong behavior towards them in social settings, from what the letters describe. The Google Doc does not appear to have been created in response to any one particular off campus event, but to provide a place for students to share their observations of negative interactions over all. The St. Albans letter (as reproduced by the Post) expressed dismay both about the underlying statements in the Google Doc about behavior by St. Albans students AND by what appeared to have been a nasty/inappropriate response of some boys once they learned about the Google Doc and its contents.

The most specific line in the St. Albans letters refers to "unwanted sexual advances" in social settings, and there is the strong suggestion from the context of both letters that these occurred in social settings where many students had been drinking. As others have noted, both schools are mandatory reporters under DC law, so if there were allegations rising to the level of sexual assault both would have reported to the DC authorities. From the chain of events described in the two letters, it does not sound like what is being described is sexual assault -- the letters at the outset mention that the girls created the Google Doc after discussions in their health class that led them to want to have more of a dialogue with St. Albans about healthy and respectful behavior in social settings.

With all that said -- and again, I urge people to read the letters and not rely on others' characterizations of them -- there will no doubt be significant follow-up by the schools but it won't necessarily be something that makes its way into the Post. Indeed, to draw a parallel (or to anticipate critical responses) even when schools and individuals undertake their obligations as mandatory reporters of suggested sexual or physical abuse, those reports are not publicized by the DC authorities but are investigated in a non-public way unless and until charges are brought. (And anyone who has ever been questioned by their pediatrician -- quite appropriately -- about how a child sustained an injury can be glad that mere reports or investigations are not public.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From a legal standpoint what can a school do here?

I have a daughter and obviously when she goes out I want her to be treated with respect by her friends and friends of the opposite sex.

However if no sexual assault occurred, what can the school really do here.

MANDATORY re-enrollment in Mrs. Simpson's!
Sue Mrs. Simpson's! Obviously, the boys did not learn proper dance etiquette!

[Anonymous]

If these accounts are true, not sure what more NCS or STA could do.

Insulting girls online should be admonished, but what more can either school do.

You can be sure that if this had happened at Landon, it would have been swept under the rug.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what particular off campus event Vance's letter to the STA community is in regards to?

It has nothing to do with some middle school dance

People really need to read the letters if they are curious about this situation and have not read the documents yet. The letters were ultimately in response to, and reference, a Google Doc created by NCS students to document inappropriate/insensitive/wrong behavior towards them in social settings, from what the letters describe. The Google Doc does not appear to have been created in response to any one particular off campus event, but to provide a place for students to share their observations of negative interactions over all. The St. Albans letter (as reproduced by the Post) expressed dismay both about the underlying statements in the Google Doc about behavior by St. Albans students AND by what appeared to have been a nasty/inappropriate response of some boys once they learned about the Google Doc and its contents.

The most specific line in the St. Albans letters refers to "unwanted sexual advances" in social settings, and there is the strong suggestion from the context of both letters that these occurred in social settings where many students had been drinking. As others have noted, both schools are mandatory reporters under DC law, so if there were allegations rising to the level of sexual assault both would have reported to the DC authorities. From the chain of events described in the two letters, it does not sound like what is being described is sexual assault -- the letters at the outset mention that the girls created the Google Doc after discussions in their health class that led them to want to have more of a dialogue with St. Albans about healthy and respectful behavior in social settings.

With all that said -- and again, I urge people to read the letters and not rely on others' characterizations of them -- there will no doubt be significant follow-up by the schools but it won't necessarily be something that makes its way into the Post. Indeed, to draw a parallel (or to anticipate critical responses) even when schools and individuals undertake their obligations as mandatory reporters of suggested sexual or physical abuse, those reports are not publicized by the DC authorities but are investigated in a non-public way unless and until charges are brought. (And anyone who has ever been questioned by their pediatrician -- quite appropriately -- about how a child sustained an injury can be glad that mere reports or investigations are not public.)

In the description by this poster is the excuse thrown out by all the do nothing adults- that alcohol was involved. Drunkeness is not a defense. And really it's not even a cause. Alcohol can lessen inhibition. Here the acts are aggressively demeaning and these feelings are in the boys before they start drinking. The sick attitudes are there. The alcohol just lets it out. St Albans needs to decide its not ok to hate women and NCS needs to decide its a priority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It. Happened off school grounds. How can the school investigate it?

Schools can't get involved with parties off school grounds . Schools can tell parents all they want not to host after parties or high schools parties where alcohol is present but from a legal standpoint, they can't get involved. It's a slippery slope.

The schoool can't legally do anything hence why waste the time to investigate it.

I have no dog in the fight here either

This is not true. There is nothing that prevents schools from imposing rules that apply off grounds. They require you to do homework at home, don't they? They could absolutely say that if you are caught doing X, Y or Z -- wherever -- you can be disciplined. Enforcement is difficult but thats another issue.

If they could prove (and it wouldn't have to be beyond a reasonable doubt) that an STA boy sexually assaulted an NCS girl -- wherever it occurred -- you better believe they could kick the boy out. The other thing they could do is refer the matter to the police for investigation. In fact, they are mandatory reporters so if they believe a student has been sexually assaulted, they are legally required to make that call, wherever the assault occurred.

In public schools, kids can be kicked off sports teams and extracurriculars if found drinking off-campus. There is a weird culture of blaming and ignoring at some privates.

Not in MCPS. You can be kicked off teams/ecs for on campus issues, or issues at school sponsored events (away games, band trips, etc). At our school the principal has tried to take a (welcome) aggressive stance on off campus behavior (eg, private parties) but the punishments have largely been in-school service. Most of the private schools seem to have the same limitations to school events.

[Anonymous]

Sexual assault is not a sex act, it's an act of violence. Unprivileged touching is a violation. How difficult is this to understand. An "advance" must be verbal or physical. If its physical and done without assent it is a battery. Please tell your boys this. There is no gray area. That's why people should know each other very well as friends before venturing into this territory. But the hook up culture denies the importance of it.
If the advance is verbal and unwelcome than I think the adults have to realize it was probably not any kind of mistake rather it was an insult with sexual language used in it. That's not a pass. That can be punished and should be by the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know what particular off campus event Vance's letter to the STA community is in regards to?

It has nothing to do with some middle school dance

People really need to read the letters if they are curious about this situation and have not read the documents yet. The letters were ultimately in response to, and reference, a Google Doc created by NCS students to document inappropriate/insensitive/wrong behavior towards them in social settings, from what the letters describe. The Google Doc does not appear to have been created in response to any one particular off campus event, but to provide a place for students to share their observations of negative interactions over all. The St. Albans letter (as reproduced by the Post) expressed dismay both about the underlying statements in the Google Doc about behavior by St. Albans students AND by what appeared to have been a nasty/inappropriate response of some boys once they learned about the Google Doc and its contents.

The most specific line in the St. Albans letters refers to "unwanted sexual advances" in social settings, and there is the strong suggestion from the context of both letters that these occurred in social settings where many students had been drinking. As others have noted, both schools are mandatory reporters under DC law, so if there were allegations rising to the level of sexual assault both would have reported to the DC authorities. From the chain of events described in the two letters, it does not sound like what is being described is sexual assault -- the letters at the outset mention that the girls created the Google Doc after discussions in their health class that led them to want to have more of a dialogue with St. Albans about healthy and respectful behavior in social settings.

With all that said -- and again, I urge people to read the letters and not rely on others' characterizations of them -- there will no doubt be significant follow-up by the schools but it won't necessarily be something that makes its way into the Post. Indeed, to draw a parallel (or to anticipate critical responses) even when schools and individuals undertake their obligations as mandatory reporters of suggested sexual or physical abuse, those reports are not publicized by the DC authorities but are investigated in a non-public way unless and until charges are brought. (And anyone who has ever been questioned by their pediatrician -- quite appropriately -- about how a child sustained an injury can be glad that mere reports or investigations are not public.)

In the description by this poster is the excuse thrown out by all the do nothing adults- that alcohol was involved. Drunkeness is not a defense. And really it's not even a cause. Alcohol can lessen inhibition. Here the acts are aggressively demeaning and these feelings are in the boys before they start drinking. The sick attitudes are there. The alcohol just lets it out. St Albans needs to decide its not ok to hate women and NCS needs to decide its a priority.

Not PP but you need to go back and read her post. She in no way said drunkenness excused the behavior.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If these accounts are true, not sure what more NCS or STA could do.

Insulting girls online should be admonished, but what more can either school do.

You can be sure that if this had happened at Landon, it would have been swept under the rug.

I don't understand this. NCS and STA are private schools, right? Private schools can't "counsel out" (i.e., expel)?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It. Happened off school grounds. How can the school investigate it?

Schools can't get involved with parties off school grounds . Schools can tell parents all they want not to host after parties or high schools parties where alcohol is present but from a legal standpoint, they can't get involved. It's a slippery slope.

The schoool can't legally do anything hence why waste the time to investigate it.

I have no dog in the fight here either

This is not true. There is nothing that prevents schools from imposing rules that apply off grounds. They require you to do homework at home, don't they? They could absolutely say that if you are caught doing X, Y or Z -- wherever -- you can be disciplined. Enforcement is difficult but thats another issue.

If they could prove (and it wouldn't have to be beyond a reasonable doubt) that an STA boy sexually assaulted an NCS girl -- wherever it occurred -- you better believe they could kick the boy out. The other thing they could do is refer the matter to the police for investigation. In fact, they are mandatory reporters so if they believe a student has been sexually assaulted, they are legally required to make that call, wherever the assault occurred.

In public schools, kids can be kicked off sports teams and extracurriculars if found drinking off-campus. There is a weird culture of blaming and ignoring at some privates.

Not in MCPS. You can be kicked off teams/ecs for on campus issues, or issues at school sponsored events (away games, band trips, etc). At our school the principal has tried to take a (welcome) aggressive stance on off campus behavior (eg, private parties) but the punishments have largely been in-school service. Most of the private schools seem to have the same limitations to school events.

I think it is at the principal's discretion or at the discretion of the teacher / coach leading the activity in MCPS.

[Anonymous]

Agree. But when people hear that word alcohol they supply the excuse and have done for years. Why did poster even mention alcohol if its not an important fact? And this is what the schools have used as their excuse That its all caused by the drinking. Maybe unwanted pregnancy is caused by that. But these girls are complaining of something else is my point.
They are experiencing hate crime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Sexual assault is not a sex act, it's an act of violence. Unprivileged touching is a violation. How difficult is this to understand. An "advance" must be verbal or physical. If its physical and done without assent it is a battery. Please tell your boys this. There is no gray area. That's why people should know each other very well as friends before venturing into this territory. But the hook up culture denies the importance of it.
If the advance is verbal and unwelcome than I think the adults have to realize it was probably not any kind of mistake rather it was an insult with sexual language used in it. That's not a pass. That can be punished and should be by the school.

I am remembering my first "sexual" experiences (not actual sex, but middle school and HS parties). Trying to count the number of boys who would have been in trouble with authorities. Then add college. Countless. Not sure what to make of this. I am now the mother of boys - thinking I'm actually relieved that my son didn't want to go to the middle school dance!

[Anonymous]

What's your message? You did not mind being mistreated so you gave birth to boys? !!! Haha!! I know they are difficult but you need to up your standards from your own creepy childhood.

[Anonymous]

It's hard to believe you were mauled and insulted by countless people, didn't mind, and don't mind if your sons do the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm astonished that the Washington Post ran a story whose news content, basically, was: a National Cathedral School administrator sent a letter, and a St. Albans School administrator also sent a letter. I wouldn't give that an A in reporting.

I think it's newsworthy because it shows how the active "rape culture/victim culture" debate on college campuses filters down to secondary schools. Both the behavior and the social media response to such behavior take on forms that parents and school administrators may not have expected. Here, it's pretty clear that what happened is that the "Google doc" created by the NCS students became the equivalent of a very large wall on a bathroom stall, where girls accused boys and boys shamed girls.

I think the administrators at both schools were right to step in, and that their messages to parents were appropriate. In the future, they need to give more thought to how NCS and St. A's students can appropriately collaborate on such topics and, of course, counsel them on the appropriate use of social media and Google docs.

It's not filtering down. It's incubating and being practiced at the private schools and they are taking their sick practices with them to college.

It is NOT filtering down, and it is old old OLD news. The responses by STA and NCS made me so upset I wanted to puke. My STA class '87 repeatedly gang raped unconscious girls from our Sophmore NCS class. When I went out to my next door neighbor after they had run a train on the sister of a friend of mine, he said "they know what happens and they come to these parties anyway." I told him he should be in jail. He laughed.

God knows what these kids did in college, but I went to Princeton and I know what happened there. NCS gave an assembly to the 10th grade girls telling them not to drink and how to behave properly. No talk was given to the STA boys, and everyone knew who they were. Their trademark as I recall was to bite the girls on the butt. And they had a name for their little club. I forget what it was. But I finally got really involved when a girl from my Outdoor Action group was raped Freshman Week at college by an athlete in an eating club, and watched her disintegrate. A lot of these boys just go on and on and on and no one stops them. I have no idea what kind of adults they are. I know a lot of them are very wealthy, married, and have kids. I wonder whether at a certain point they stopped. But that kind of behavior and the values it reflects doesn't just go away, especially when it starts when you watch boys you idolize at 15 and then become them as seniors.

This reminds me of the thread where all the old NCS alums were told we were bitter and lying and that NCS and STA cullture had changed. So what do you think of us now? I graduated as did my brother and three cousins, we all went to HYP (except for one outlier to a SLAC) and none of us would ever send our kids to NCS or STA. I am also the only surviving Episcopalian, and I completely understand that as well.

They rip the religion right out of your soul with the rest of their behavior, or lack of behavior, on this particular issue, which has been endemic in these schools now for at least 25 years........... and counting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

As someone who went to NCS, was in this grade, and has seen the document, you are so wrong. First off, nobody has been drinking for "years now". The people who do drink, which is few, started late last year, which compared to kids at other schools, this isn't anything abnormal (I'm not condoning underage drinking). Second, people who left in our grade left mostly because of harassment, me included. Third, the document was anonymous and didn't include names. The two schools are not "receptive" and they do not "listen". I went to the school, along with many others, multiple times to complain about harassment and even with proof the most they did was give the people a warning. How many warnings can one give? They would act as if they cared about my problems but not do anything about it. And I can tell you that the harassment my friends and I witnessed was pretty foul. When NCS found out about the document, they told the sophomore girls that they didn't handle the situation well, even though the document was meant as a "safe space" where girls could anonymously share their stories about times they felt victimized by STA sophomores. One girl showed the boys and that's how the news spread. Once the boys found out they responded horrendously saying things like, "this is why girls shouldn't have rights". Once this became publicized in the news, that's when NCS and STA sent letters to the parents. They only did this because it became public and they wanted to save the school's reputation. Otherwise they wouldn't of done so, trust me.

There is no way that this is an actual NCS student or alum. "Wouldn't of done so"? No way such poor grammar would have passed muster.

People who have nowhere else to turn attack the grammar. Sounds to me like she hit a nerve. Good on ya, PP.
Don't let anyone silence you..........
and recognize that there are a ton of folks on this list serve whoknow with absolute certainty that you are telling the truth and that no one wants to hear it

STA class of '89