NYT article on men struggling with their place in society

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Haha. A person literally had to have a penis to get an education or to get a vote or to go to college for I don't even know how many hundreds of years. As if that was any kind of qualification at all.

+1 Until 1974 women couldn’t get a credit card in their name!

[Anonymous]

I mean, not sure if you remember this but prior to 2020 white women had the same attitudes towards BIPOC and especially WOC.

Talk to any WOC and they’ll have stories about the time a white woman did something racist, and when called out, cried or otherwise had a meltdown to flip the situation and make it all about comforting them.

I was in the yoga scene for 20 years and appropriation was especially bad. Nobody would hire a South Asian instructor who had been practicing since childhood; it was all about the young, blonde, gorgeous women who were mostly former dancers. And if you pointed out that perhaps we should hire South Asian yoga teachers to close the wage gap between them and the blondes, there were the same arguments used in the gender wage gap of “they don’t bring in as much revenue” or “they don’t teach as well” or “we hire based on merit”.

Things started to change after the murder of George Floyd, when it became in vogue for white women to “do the work” and become anti-racist. Not because of what POC had been saying for decades, but because other white women were doing it, and it gave them a way to prove they weren’t racist to other white people. I saw yoga teachers hire anti-racism coaches for themselves and rebrand rather than switching to teaching Pilates or general fitness.

And watch the responses this post gets. You’ll see women go “no, that’s not true, I’m not racist, it’s okay for white people to teach yoga, you can’t even do yoga without someone getting upset….” Which is fine, but that’s the same things these men are saying. “I’m not sexist, I’m not a bad guy, I care about women, you can’t even give a compliment without someone getting upset….”

This isn’t to just slam on white women. I am one. But it’s to point out that society has changed rapidly the last few decades, and people haven’t yet developed the skills to navigate these new expectations, probably including you too, so perhaps some grace is in order. I’m white, H is BIPOC, we have 1 (possibly 2) LGBTQ+ kids, and H and I have both had to learn new ways of operating. He did misogynistic things, I did racist things, we both did homophobic things. Maybe not big things, but still things. And re-learning new ways of thinking and acting is HARD, and we both still make mistakes, but over time it gets better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

This is just stupid. What is happening is a major change in society -- AI is part but still a bit away. Lots of people feel disconnected. No one has handed anything to anyone. But certain paths by certain people have been easier than others. Now it is hard for all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Go Luigi!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, not sure if you remember this but prior to 2020 white women had the same attitudes towards BIPOC and especially WOC.

Talk to any WOC and they’ll have stories about the time a white woman did something racist, and when called out, cried or otherwise had a meltdown to flip the situation and make it all about comforting them.

I was in the yoga scene for 20 years and appropriation was especially bad. Nobody would hire a South Asian instructor who had been practicing since childhood; it was all about the young, blonde, gorgeous women who were mostly former dancers. And if you pointed out that perhaps we should hire South Asian yoga teachers to close the wage gap between them and the blondes, there were the same arguments used in the gender wage gap of “they don’t bring in as much revenue” or “they don’t teach as well” or “we hire based on merit”.

Things started to change after the murder of George Floyd, when it became in vogue for white women to “do the work” and become anti-racist. Not because of what POC had been saying for decades, but because other white women were doing it, and it gave them a way to prove they weren’t racist to other white people. I saw yoga teachers hire anti-racism coaches for themselves and rebrand rather than switching to teaching Pilates or general fitness.

And watch the responses this post gets. You’ll see women go “no, that’s not true, I’m not racist, it’s okay for white people to teach yoga, you can’t even do yoga without someone getting upset….” Which is fine, but that’s the same things these men are saying. “I’m not sexist, I’m not a bad guy, I care about women, you can’t even give a compliment without someone getting upset….”

This isn’t to just slam on white women. I am one. But it’s to point out that society has changed rapidly the last few decades, and people haven’t yet developed the skills to navigate these new expectations, probably including you too, so perhaps some grace is in order. I’m white, H is BIPOC, we have 1 (possibly 2) LGBTQ+ kids, and H and I have both had to learn new ways of operating. He did misogynistic things, I did racist things, we both did homophobic things. Maybe not big things, but still things. And re-learning new ways of thinking and acting is HARD, and we both still make mistakes, but over time it gets better.

George Floyd? Everything about that turned out to be not what was represented at first. That is a changing point for nothing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Perhaps your supervisor likes making $$. Having women in the C-suite makes companies more profitable.

“A profitable firm at which 30 percent of leaders are women could expect to add more than 1 percentage point to its net margin compared with an otherwise similar firm with no female leaders,” the report notes. “By way of comparison, the typical profitable firm in our sample had a net profit margin of 6.4 percent, so a 1 percentage point increase represents a 15 percent boost to profitability.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/02/why-companies-with-female-managers-make-more-money.html

These types of studies are bunk and methodologically suspect, but I bet that won't stop you from parroting what you want to hear...

https://www.city-journal.org/article/mckinsey-and-companys-diversity-fog

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, not sure if you remember this but prior to 2020 white women had the same attitudes towards BIPOC and especially WOC.

Talk to any WOC and they’ll have stories about the time a white woman did something racist, and when called out, cried or otherwise had a meltdown to flip the situation and make it all about comforting them.

I was in the yoga scene for 20 years and appropriation was especially bad. Nobody would hire a South Asian instructor who had been practicing since childhood; it was all about the young, blonde, gorgeous women who were mostly former dancers. And if you pointed out that perhaps we should hire South Asian yoga teachers to close the wage gap between them and the blondes, there were the same arguments used in the gender wage gap of “they don’t bring in as much revenue” or “they don’t teach as well” or “we hire based on merit”.

Things started to change after the murder of George Floyd, when it became in vogue for white women to “do the work” and become anti-racist. Not because of what POC had been saying for decades, but because other white women were doing it, and it gave them a way to prove they weren’t racist to other white people. I saw yoga teachers hire anti-racism coaches for themselves and rebrand rather than switching to teaching Pilates or general fitness.

And watch the responses this post gets. You’ll see women go “no, that’s not true, I’m not racist, it’s okay for white people to teach yoga, you can’t even do yoga without someone getting upset….” Which is fine, but that’s the same things these men are saying. “I’m not sexist, I’m not a bad guy, I care about women, you can’t even give a compliment without someone getting upset….”

This isn’t to just slam on white women. I am one. But it’s to point out that society has changed rapidly the last few decades, and people haven’t yet developed the skills to navigate these new expectations, probably including you too, so perhaps some grace is in order. I’m white, H is BIPOC, we have 1 (possibly 2) LGBTQ+ kids, and H and I have both had to learn new ways of operating. He did misogynistic things, I did racist things, we both did homophobic things. Maybe not big things, but still things. And re-learning new ways of thinking and acting is HARD, and we both still make mistakes, but over time it gets better.

Who the F are you to tell white women what their "real" motivation is for wanting to address racism, including examining their own biases and behaviors? Not every white woman is a yoga instructor. Not every white woman is motivated by what other white women are doing.

Perhaps if you think it is bad to generalize about other people based on one demographic characteristic, you should not do it yourself.

[Anonymous]

The article linked is not providing insight into all men. This is a group of Trump voters. The stuff they believe about Trump is so batshit. I know lots of guys who aren't this batshit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, not sure if you remember this but prior to 2020 white women had the same attitudes towards BIPOC and especially WOC.

Talk to any WOC and they’ll have stories about the time a white woman did something racist, and when called out, cried or otherwise had a meltdown to flip the situation and make it all about comforting them.

I was in the yoga scene for 20 years and appropriation was especially bad. Nobody would hire a South Asian instructor who had been practicing since childhood; it was all about the young, blonde, gorgeous women who were mostly former dancers. And if you pointed out that perhaps we should hire South Asian yoga teachers to close the wage gap between them and the blondes, there were the same arguments used in the gender wage gap of “they don’t bring in as much revenue” or “they don’t teach as well” or “we hire based on merit”.

Things started to change after the murder of George Floyd, when it became in vogue for white women to “do the work” and become anti-racist. Not because of what POC had been saying for decades, but because other white women were doing it, and it gave them a way to prove they weren’t racist to other white people. I saw yoga teachers hire anti-racism coaches for themselves and rebrand rather than switching to teaching Pilates or general fitness.

And watch the responses this post gets. You’ll see women go “no, that’s not true, I’m not racist, it’s okay for white people to teach yoga, you can’t even do yoga without someone getting upset….” Which is fine, but that’s the same things these men are saying. “I’m not sexist, I’m not a bad guy, I care about women, you can’t even give a compliment without someone getting upset….”

This isn’t to just slam on white women. I am one. But it’s to point out that society has changed rapidly the last few decades, and people haven’t yet developed the skills to navigate these new expectations, probably including you too, so perhaps some grace is in order. I’m white, H is BIPOC, we have 1 (possibly 2) LGBTQ+ kids, and H and I have both had to learn new ways of operating. He did misogynistic things, I did racist things, we both did homophobic things. Maybe not big things, but still things. And re-learning new ways of thinking and acting is HARD, and we both still make mistakes, but over time it gets better.

Who the F are you to tell white women what their "real" motivation is for wanting to address racism, including examining their own biases and behaviors? Not every white woman is a yoga instructor. Not every white woman is motivated by what other white women are doing.

Perhaps if you think it is bad to generalize about other people based on one demographic characteristic, you should not do it yourself.

And here we have “not all women”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/01/16/opinion/men-trump-voters-focus-group.html?unlocked_article_code=1.pk4.M2Hr.Thy5lM84dXHH&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

I just read this and I am not sure there is an eye roll emoji that can accurately reflect how ridiculous this article is. A focus group of 12 men who voted for Trump. I admit I am a 40-something woman, with sisters and daughters so I probably have less opportunity to see this, but I struggle to believe that men are feeling like they don’t have a place in society. They OWN society. What is the deal with this whining? Even the comments about how they feel like chivalry is gone because women give them a dirty look if they hold a door. It is BASIC courtesy. And since when are men worried about getting a dirty look?

Can anyone explain this to me?

They used to own society. Now women own something like 2% and they are seething about it. It's no surprise coming from trumpers though lol. White men are the biggest victims of the 21st century

+100
The thread on gay men proves this. If you're used to being handed everything in life (straight men) and suddenly you have to work for things, you get mad. If you haven't had everything handed to you in life, you're benefiting now that societal values have shifted.

It’s actually women who are handed everything in life simply for being female and attractive. Look at the onlyfans models making 8 figures a year for taking some crappy smartphone pics

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have not yet read the NYT article but I highly recommend Hanna Rosin's book "The End of Men"

Wikipedia:
Writing in 2021, after a year in which more women than men lost jobs due to the COVID-19 recession, Rosin referred to her "tragic naïveté" in writing the book.[7]

[Anonymous]

I am a woman who is also frustrated with male whining, but i think this article is instructive: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/10/26/upshot/census-relative-income.html

Basically, blue collar white men have not just stagnated while other groups have caught up, but also fallen behind other groups. Even if men can’t point to the statistics, I think they feel that a lot of opportunities their parents’ generation had (eg supporting a middle class family with a factor job) are no longer available to them.

Likewise, the loneliness epidemic / growing social epidemic has affected men more.

Women are already bearing the brunt of the mental load even those in relatively equal marriages, so I don’t think this is women’s problem to solve. But it is a social problem, and I do think it is important to recognize in order to understand the growing appeal of right wing demagogues. Same happened (per Robert Putnam also in recent nyt article) in Germany when hitler came along.

I do think

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As the mom of 2 teens of each gender, I am often able to find MORE opportunities for my girl than boy from Girls on the Run, coding for girls, cooking for girls and just a whole lot of new programs specifically aimed for girls I mean even Boy Scouts take girls now! Hah.

So yeah, on some level, I do get the feeling that as women have gained in education, rights and financially, men may feel like they see less of men and get confused why so many women are around.

I been in terms of nature, women are much stronger mentally and emotionally than men all things being equal - I feel like society norms are changing. Many more stay at home dads and women as breadwinners of the family now. I'm not surprised to see news of more men espp op less educated or integrated, feel troubled by their place in society. You see female characters' strength and opportunity to be and do anything in movies and it reflects reality.

I also have a daughter and a son. I agree with you: there are far more opportunities for my daughter than for my son.

You mentioned these, but:

- I loved participating in GOTR with my daughter, but my son was excluded from that program on the basis of their male gender

- my son is in Scouting USA (the new name for BSA or Boy Scouts). It is now open and welcoming to girls and other genders. My daughter is a Girl Scout, but boys are excluded on the basis of their male gender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean, not sure if you remember this but prior to 2020 white women had the same attitudes towards BIPOC and especially WOC.

Talk to any WOC and they’ll have stories about the time a white woman did something racist, and when called out, cried or otherwise had a meltdown to flip the situation and make it all about comforting them.

I was in the yoga scene for 20 years and appropriation was especially bad. Nobody would hire a South Asian instructor who had been practicing since childhood; it was all about the young, blonde, gorgeous women who were mostly former dancers. And if you pointed out that perhaps we should hire South Asian yoga teachers to close the wage gap between them and the blondes, there were the same arguments used in the gender wage gap of “they don’t bring in as much revenue” or “they don’t teach as well” or “we hire based on merit”.

Things started to change after the murder of George Floyd, when it became in vogue for white women to “do the work” and become anti-racist. Not because of what POC had been saying for decades, but because other white women were doing it, and it gave them a way to prove they weren’t racist to other white people. I saw yoga teachers hire anti-racism coaches for themselves and rebrand rather than switching to teaching Pilates or general fitness.

And watch the responses this post gets. You’ll see women go “no, that’s not true, I’m not racist, it’s okay for white people to teach yoga, you can’t even do yoga without someone getting upset….” Which is fine, but that’s the same things these men are saying. “I’m not sexist, I’m not a bad guy, I care about women, you can’t even give a compliment without someone getting upset….”

This isn’t to just slam on white women. I am one. But it’s to point out that society has changed rapidly the last few decades, and people haven’t yet developed the skills to navigate these new expectations, probably including you too, so perhaps some grace is in order. I’m white, H is BIPOC, we have 1 (possibly 2) LGBTQ+ kids, and H and I have both had to learn new ways of operating. He did misogynistic things, I did racist things, we both did homophobic things. Maybe not big things, but still things. And re-learning new ways of thinking and acting is HARD, and we both still make mistakes, but over time it gets better.

I find the cheery blonde who grow up rich enough to take tons of dance classes just for fun bring great energy to the table. It’s really not about competency in yoga, it’s that attitude from upper middle “main stream” class that people pay to be around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As the mom of 2 teens of each gender, I am often able to find MORE opportunities for my girl than boy from Girls on the Run, coding for girls, cooking for girls and just a whole lot of new programs specifically aimed for girls I mean even Boy Scouts take girls now! Hah.

So yeah, on some level, I do get the feeling that as women have gained in education, rights and financially, men may feel like they see less of men and get confused why so many women are around.

I been in terms of nature, women are much stronger mentally and emotionally than men all things being equal - I feel like society norms are changing. Many more stay at home dads and women as breadwinners of the family now. I'm not surprised to see news of more men espp op less educated or integrated, feel troubled by their place in society. You see female characters' strength and opportunity to be and do anything in movies and it reflects reality.

I also have a daughter and a son. I agree with you: there are far more opportunities for my daughter than for my son.

You mentioned these, but:

- I loved participating in GOTR with my daughter, but my son was excluded from that program on the basis of their male gender

- my son is in Scouting USA (the new name for BSA or Boy Scouts). It is now open and welcoming to girls and other genders. My daughter is a Girl Scout, but boys are excluded on the basis of their male gender.

No worries, once they start working your son will magically secure all the favorable bias from white men managers and earn multiple promotions.