NYT article on men struggling with their place in society

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

I certainly think we have work to do regarding equality, but in my profession I have noticed that in the past 5-8 years literally ZERO white people have been given residencies, grants, fellowships or stipends in the DC area. Well, I think maybe there was one white woman but she was gay. So, as a white person, I have been going after every single thing and have been shut out. I'm not saying anything of course because the whole world would call me a Karen, but I guess I'm lucky my spouse makes a decent amount of money because I have totally stagnated despite being pretty damn talented and incredibly hard working.

Every group tries to help their own out. White men were getting their golfing buddies and frat bros in for years. So we start getting people of color and women into positions of power, they then start helping out their fellow women. That was the original point of DEI, to break up the boys club. For it to be a true meritocracy, everyone would have to stop helping out their friends, family, and people from their racial groups and that isn’t going to happen in the near future.

You think women help each other out in this way? I’ve got a bridge to sell you.

+1

Remember when Tina Fey randomly insulted Rob Schneider while discussing Jan Hooks’ career? And Rob pointed out that he owes all of his success to Adam Sandler, because Adam Sandler makes sure his buddies are taken care of… so if Tina Fey thought Jan Hooks was so great she could have easily made things happen for her. But for whatever reason she only cast her in a bit part in one of her hugely successful ventures. Yet Tina wants to point fingers at everyone else for Jam Hooks not being given more opportunities.

Tina Fey wanted to hire her buddy Rachel Dratch as the lead in 30 Rock but the network said she wasn’t pretty enough and made her hire Jane Krakowski instead.

What’s that got to do with 1) Jan Hooks and 2) Tina Fey’s projects after 30 Rock?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know but Mark Zuckerberg was recently talking about masculinity. Who made him an authority? I agree masculinity is in crisis. I think many men are whiny babies who have benefitted off the backs of women and those less fortunate than them (slaves, servants, immigrants).

Men are so lucky to not be slaves, servants, or immigrants!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

Black people are not gatekeeping your child’s ability to get into an Ivy League school.

You realize that’s athletes and children of billionaires.

We are not gaslighting you we are telling you facts. The fact is your white male child did not get into an Ivy League school because an Asian, a white athlete, and a rich kid got ahead of him.

If you wanted him to get in, you should’ve done better and bought a building for the school.

NP: no, now you really are gaslighting, PP.

Look: we all know for the majority of the US’s history, it was impossible or nearly so, for a Black person to get into many universities other than HBCUs (which why HBCUs even exist, as we all know).

But you are gaslighting when you try to deny that colleges are often reluctant to admit equally-qualified white applicants and businesses are reluctant to hire many, if any, white applicants.

It’s racism and it’s real. If you need to, call it “reverse racism.” Or call it discrimination or race-based discrimination, if it makes you feel better. But the fact remains:

- racism is real. Stop defending racism.

Both of my white boys have gotten into multiple colleges and gotten prestigious internships and jobs in the last 4 years. I’m just not seeing it. Have they gotten into every college or gotten an offer for every single job or internship? No.

Then all must be fine for all men and boys. That's good to know. And you'll be sure to tell them that, when they are job hunting, too.

PP said “if any” white men were being hired. I just wanted to report that both of my white makes have successfully landed opportunities. I didn’t think it made them a unicorn, since we know score of white boys with jobs and two, yes TWO!, white boys who got full rides to college last year. Imagine that!

[Anonymous]

It's not surprising this thread interpreted the issue through the bubble of the UMC in typical DCUM style. This issue is all about capitalism and social class. The labor force participation of non college educated men in the prime age has been declining for decades, along with their real wages. Non-college educated men make less in real dollars today than they did four decades ago. Much of this has to do with globalization and the decline of manufacturing jobs that had unions and decent pay and benefits. Women's wages have grown, but it's largely been among college educated women. Anyone here ever visited a town that was once a thriving middle class community and now the only things to do are work at Wal-Mart and get high on opioids? The populist movement exploits these very real struggles despite having the wrong policies to address them.

[Anonymous]

Wtf men do you people know?

My father, my brother, my BIL, my 20-30-something nephews, my HS and college age sons are nothing like the men in the article or like the stereotypes painted with a broad brush here.

I bristle when I hear women just ranting like crazy people (in the same manner the right does) men all suck and are all racist ogres. Always wonder what their fathers or brothers are like and I assume they don’t have sons, at least I hope not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

Black people are not gatekeeping your child’s ability to get into an Ivy League school.

You realize that’s athletes and children of billionaires.

We are not gaslighting you we are telling you facts. The fact is your white male child did not get into an Ivy League school because an Asian, a white athlete, and a rich kid got ahead of him.

If you wanted him to get in, you should’ve done better and bought a building for the school.

NP: no, now you really are gaslighting, PP.

Look: we all know for the majority of the US’s history, it was impossible or nearly so, for a Black person to get into many universities other than HBCUs (which why HBCUs even exist, as we all know).

But you are gaslighting when you try to deny that colleges are often reluctant to admit equally-qualified white applicants and businesses are reluctant to hire many, if any, white applicants.

It’s racism and it’s real. If you need to, call it “reverse racism.” Or call it discrimination or race-based discrimination, if it makes you feel better. But the fact remains:

- racism is real. Stop defending racism.

Both of my white boys have gotten into multiple colleges and gotten prestigious internships and jobs in the last 4 years. I’m just not seeing it. Have they gotten into every college or gotten an offer for every single job or internship? No.

This entire situation is built on how people raise their kids. A lot of parents hold their boys and girls to different standards. The girls are pushed hard academically and behaviorally and boys are given passes and excuses and it shows into adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's not surprising this thread interpreted the issue through the bubble of the UMC in typical DCUM style. This issue is all about capitalism and social class. The labor force participation of non college educated men in the prime age has been declining for decades, along with their real wages. Non-college educated men make less in real dollars today than they did four decades ago. Much of this has to do with globalization and the decline of manufacturing jobs that had unions and decent pay and benefits. Women's wages have grown, but it's largely been among college educated women. Anyone here ever visited a town that was once a thriving middle class community and now the only things to do are work at Wal-Mart and get high on opioids? The populist movement exploits these very real struggles despite having the wrong policies to address them.

Yes AND Trumpism has been against college for years. Coastal elites, hello?! Instead of dying for their country, maybe MAGA should learn math for their country. “But dying is easy, math is hard.”

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DD-MPWAPoaT/?igsh=b2Z0NGE1MmNoaDJm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

Maybe the kid is just stupid. My white son got into 2 Ivies last year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wtf men do you people know?

My father, my brother, my BIL, my 20-30-something nephews, my HS and college age sons are nothing like the men in the article or like the stereotypes painted with a broad brush here.

I bristle when I hear women just ranting like crazy people (in the same manner the right does) men all suck and are all racist ogres. Always wonder what their fathers or brothers are like and I assume they don’t have sons, at least I hope not.

+1

[Anonymous]

As the mom of 2 teens of each gender, I am often able to find MORE opportunities for my girl than boy from Girls on the Run, coding for girls, cooking for girls and just a whole lot of new programs specifically aimed for girls I mean even Boy Scouts take girls now! Hah.

So yeah, on some level, I do get the feeling that as women have gained in education, rights and financially, men may feel like they see less of men and get confused why so many women are around.

I been in terms of nature, women are much stronger mentally and emotionally than men all things being equal - I feel like society norms are changing. Many more stay at home dads and women as breadwinners of the family now. I'm not surprised to see news of more men espp op less educated or integrated, feel troubled by their place in society. You see female characters' strength and opportunity to be and do anything in movies and it reflects reality.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

I think it's situations like this, which happen, that have created a narrative for some portion of the population that white men (and sometimes white women too) are victims.

In many parts of life - working class jobs, college admissions, professional jobs - we have been told out loud that white people's piece of the pie needs to be smaller in whatever way we can make it happen. This is because their piece of the pie was way too big. But the white people alive right this minute in this time, they FEEL and they PERCEIVE that they are being squeezed out. And isn't life all about perceptions? They perceive their piece of the pie is shrinking (and maybe it is) and there is the same number of them and they're scrambling for someone to blame and an answer and a way to keep the piece of the pie for themselves and most importantly, their children.

I think this is important to talk about if we want to understand the rise of Trump. Dismissing it as "insane" is at our own peril.

First of all, the idea of limited resources is a fallacy.

Also, if you only feel comfortable discussing things with the concept that there are limited resources than the people, you should have a problem with other people that eat so much pie they are throwing up and have to give it to Africa because they have so much… billionaires.

Not getting it. It’s how people feel and what they see in their own lives. I got into Ivy school and my white kid cant. I’m up for promotion or prestigious thing and it never goes to a white person. People are telling you this in this thread and then the response is oh you’re wrong. Then people feel gaslit and they’re pissed.

Black people are not gatekeeping your child’s ability to get into an Ivy League school.

You realize that’s athletes and children of billionaires.

We are not gaslighting you we are telling you facts. The fact is your white male child did not get into an Ivy League school because an Asian, a white athlete, and a rich kid got ahead of him.

If you wanted him to get in, you should’ve done better and bought a building for the school.

NP: no, now you really are gaslighting, PP.

Look: we all know for the majority of the US’s history, it was impossible or nearly so, for a Black person to get into many universities other than HBCUs (which why HBCUs even exist, as we all know).

But you are gaslighting when you try to deny that colleges are often reluctant to admit equally-qualified white applicants and businesses are reluctant to hire many, if any, white applicants.

It’s racism and it’s real. If you need to, call it “reverse racism.” Or call it discrimination or race-based discrimination, if it makes you feel better. But the fact remains:

- racism is real. Stop defending racism.

Oh lordy you know the white man is in serious trouble when he starts playing the race card. Where is your pride?

If a legacy admit can’t get into Harvard it’s because he’s a dope. An unimpressive pile of poo when forced to compete with a hungry Asian kid who just wants it more.

Maybe being born with a silver spoon in your mouth doesn’t open the doors it used to. That’s okay there are always the trades. I hear plumbers make good money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wtf men do you people know?

My father, my brother, my BIL, my 20-30-something nephews, my HS and college age sons are nothing like the men in the article or like the stereotypes painted with a broad brush here.

I bristle when I hear women just ranting like crazy people (in the same manner the right does) men all suck and are all racist ogres. Always wonder what their fathers or brothers are like and I assume they don’t have sons, at least I hope not.

Nobody said all they said Trump voters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe they suddenly are experiencing a lack of sea parting for straight men in society and are having breakdowns and being crybabies. Mad because society has started to value competence and excellence over gender/race/physical appearance/stereotypes of what kind of people should be in what roles in society.

Agree. There is an idiom for this: when you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.

An example is a study done in business meetings. When women spoke 25% of the time, men said that men and women spoke equally as often. When women spoke just 30% of the time, men said that women dominated the conversation. It objectively wasn’t true, but women only had to speak a little more for men to think they were dominating the conversation.

Men (esp white men of a certain age) were raised believing that they would be at the top of the food chain. And that’s still mostly true. But they have to share some of the spotlight now, and boy, they don’t like it.

This is it exactly. They don't like sharing power and they really don't like being called out for bad behavior. Women asking to be treated respectfully is apparently = to persecuting and marginalizing men. The other thing that drives me nuts is mothers with sons who go on and on about how the world is against their poor, poor boys. FFS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As the mom of 2 teens of each gender, I am often able to find MORE opportunities for my girl than boy from Girls on the Run, coding for girls, cooking for girls and just a whole lot of new programs specifically aimed for girls I mean even Boy Scouts take girls now! Hah.

So yeah, on some level, I do get the feeling that as women have gained in education, rights and financially, men may feel like they see less of men and get confused why so many women are around.

I been in terms of nature, women are much stronger mentally and emotionally than men all things being equal - I feel like society norms are changing. Many more stay at home dads and women as breadwinners of the family now. I'm not surprised to see news of more men espp op less educated or integrated, feel troubled by their place in society. You see female characters' strength and opportunity to be and do anything in movies and it reflects reality.

Boys have the same opportunities.

It’s called running, coding, and cooking. You realize that right?

Also football, baseball, hockey, wrestling, hunting, cycling, weightlifting. On and on and on

They don’t have to put for boys on the name because we just know … it’s for boys.

Just like cheerleading is not girls cheerleading,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The other thread on this has been eye-opening.

I'm beginning to see how Trump won. He's a voice for the marginalized and straight white dudes now see themselves that way due to overzealous DEI practices.

I find some DEI practices a bit too restrictive. We had a female employee give notice and to maintain a "good ratio" on our team, my supervisor said the new hire had to be a woman. So boobs > qualifications, cool.

Haha. A person literally had to have a penis to get an education or to get a vote or to go to college for I don't even know how many hundreds of years. As if that was any kind of qualification at all.