Can a normal smart kid get into an ivy these days?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

It's just bizarre to think that this is what should be expected of very smart 17-year-olds to attend a top-tier university. It's more like the Westminster Dog Show than a normal adolescence. While their parents may not have started or run non-profits for them, it strains credulity to think they weren't planning how their kids would be looking Ivy-ready many years in advance.

It's not exactly a secret as to why this is how things are now - Tiger parents from other countries who did what was required in their countries of origins for their kids to have a shot at success. But it's totally changed the game, in ways that may not be good for kids' mental health. And it's why many others "just say no" to the insanity and are happier their kids end up at UMD or VT than Princeton or Harvard.

After seeing the beginning of some mental health issues in my very smart high stats hs kid due to the huge amount of pressure they are putting on themselves, I recently “just said no” and I have felt a huge lift of exhaustion and sense of relief as I imagine them and am encouraging them to look at (no longer Dartmouth or MIT) perhaps a SLAC or some other strong school they can have a solid education in what they want to study and also have a wonderful time being a college student. I want a child at age 22 who has learned a lot about themselves, been challenged, made amazing friends, taken a variety of mind expanding courses, independent, ready and excited for young adulthood—a first job or grad school—not some beaten down clone who has slogged through hell and back just to say they could get into and graduate from someplace that sounds “impressive”. Obviously not all kids would be like that, HPY is the right fit for some kids who fit those institutions priorities. But more and more it seems kids who are “super high achievers” lack a sense of self because they’ve been so focused on doing things that seem impressive to others for so long, they don’t know how to think for themselves and create their own path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

The Asian parents may have not started non profits for their kids but they started all the academic competitions in middle school. Go to any mathcounts contests or science fairs and you will see a lot of kids who have been doing these for years. Just like whites focus on sports, many Asians focus on academic competions. My daughter loves science and I was looking into science fairs and was surprised to learn there are so many consultants who charge top dollars to guide you through the process. There are several paid research programs. I don't have the time or resources to help her through the process so she is cold calling and reaching out to people and labs herself. I am sure she will land something but she has to compete with kids whose parents are knowledgeable and have resources to help them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, aid tends to be close to a full ride. They do, however, have a few hours a day built into their schedules to hone extracurricular skills.

You could easily prove that poster wrong by providing a link to the financial aid offices at the top boarding schools. But you’re not going to do that, because it’s not true. It’s absolutely not true that half of the students in the top boarding schools in this country are attending for virtually nothing. Absolute bullshit.

In fact, it just took me five seconds to prove myself right. Here is a link to Andover financial aid page. It says that 45% of returning students receive financial aid averaging $43,000 a year. Full cost is just under $70,000 a year. So that means 55% of the class is paying $70,000 a year for school, and 45% are paying on average $27,000 a year. That’s not “close to a full ride” by a long shot. And Andover is among the most generous of boarding schools when it comes to aid.

https://www.andover.edu/admission/tuition-and-financial-aid

Andover is a bad example because they have a large percentage of students who are day (non-boarding ) and who do not pay the full amount but only pay $54.000.

Here is another example: "Thirty-nine percent of Deerfield’s current students receive financial aid. The average boarding grant size is $58,345 and constitutes 82% of the total cost of tuition and fees."

Ok, so 61 percent are full freight and the other 39 percent pay tens of thousands a year. Got it.

That’s not close to half getting a full ride either.

The vast majority of free tuition kids at fancy private high schools are faculty offspring. They'll sprinkle it with a few URMs or local rural types to make it all seem wonderful. Buts it's basically a perk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

The Asian parents may have not started non profits for their kids but they started all the academic competitions in middle school. Go to any mathcounts contests or science fairs and you will see a lot of kids who have been doing these for years. Just like whites focus on sports, many Asians focus on academic competions. My daughter loves science and I was looking into science fairs and was surprised to learn there are so many consultants who charge top dollars to guide you through the process. There are several paid research programs. I don't have the time or resources to help her through the process so she is cold calling and reaching out to people and labs herself. I am sure she will land something but she has to compete with kids whose parents are knowledgeable and have resources to help them.

OP here. My kid has also competed in those academic competitions since middle school. He does well in them but does not rank at a national level. He does well on a state level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, aid tends to be close to a full ride. They do, however, have a few hours a day built into their schedules to hone extracurricular skills.

You could easily prove that poster wrong by providing a link to the financial aid offices at the top boarding schools. But you’re not going to do that, because it’s not true. It’s absolutely not true that half of the students in the top boarding schools in this country are attending for virtually nothing. Absolute bullshit.

In fact, it just took me five seconds to prove myself right. Here is a link to Andover financial aid page. It says that 45% of returning students receive financial aid averaging $43,000 a year. Full cost is just under $70,000 a year. So that means 55% of the class is paying $70,000 a year for school, and 45% are paying on average $27,000 a year. That’s not “close to a full ride” by a long shot. And Andover is among the most generous of boarding schools when it comes to aid.

https://www.andover.edu/admission/tuition-and-financial-aid

Andover is a bad example because they have a large percentage of students who are day (non-boarding ) and who do not pay the full amount but only pay $54.000.

Here is another example: "Thirty-nine percent of Deerfield’s current students receive financial aid. The average boarding grant size is $58,345 and constitutes 82% of the total cost of tuition and fees."

Ok, so 61 percent are full freight and the other 39 percent pay tens of thousands a year. Got it.

That’s not close to half getting a full ride either.

The vast majority of free tuition kids at fancy private high schools are faculty offspring. They'll sprinkle it with a few URMs or local rural types to make it all seem wonderful. Buts it's basically a perk.

There aren't that many faculty with currently high school aged kids. A number of the URMS do get aid, as do many prize athletes and kids from the local area. One thing you got right, though, is that if you think your white MC kid who brings none of those things to the table is getting aid, you are sniffing glue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not unless they are first gen, rural, a recruitable athlete, URM, or have famous/powerful connections.

Otherwise they go to Big State U with a ton of merit aid and/or the honors college.

I laughed out loud reading this because it is 100% accurate.

I'm biased but my kid graduated with straight As, 33 credits, a 4.6 GPA on a 4.0 scale, 1580 SAT, top 1% of class, multiple published works, an multi-sport athlete, captain of robotics team and savant like skills in his intended major from a full pay family and he goes in only to safeties. White, unhooked male. Everyone knew who my kid was locally- he is genius IQ smart....and at a state flagship honors with merit. LOL. Oh and he went to a seminar on his essay by college AO and they called it "brilliant" so it wasn't a "bad essay". Aside from now seeing the farce this admissions process is (anyone wonder the logic of 60K a year AO's deciding who's worthy or not?) I have learned to accept it is a game you cannot win, you are either "connected" or URM. On the other hand, my kid is surrounded by similar brilliant rejects at his program so what is happening is these kids are not being cancelled, they are establishing new nexuses. Time will tell of the success of the highly coveted school and their filters, I have a hard time believing they are very fine tuned after seeing the test optional, covid-era, dei, legecy preference, bloodbath my kid went through.

The problem is, there are thousands of kids like yours. How are the AO's supposed to distinguish them without flipping a coin? My kid sounds like your kid. absolutely no difference.

OP here. My kid is like pp’s kid. He has perfect grades and test scores. I’m torn how involved DH and I should be getting something on his resume that stands out. We do have the money and resources but it would be all us, not DS. DS is a well rounded kid in all categories. He is not nationally ranked in anything, just usually best at the school or state. I believe this makes him UVA material, not Harvard or Penn. He loves UPenn as does every other kid.

You are the first to acknowledge that it takes the parents to make it happen. All the kids I know who had non profits, businesses, or juggled multiple leadership positions while being a perfect student and artist all had parents doing the work behind the scenes: from writing speeches to finishing art projects, to running the bulk of the non profit. I know parents who set up non profits that served literally not one person. And others who used connections to get awards for their kids. And this is what kills me about where college competition is now. Don’t dismay if your kids ends up in a “third tier” school, odds are they will be sounded by kids with more integrity than at a top 10.

Agree. The top schools are becoming a joke between the unqualified TO students and the wealthy non-profit creators at the other end.

How did you make that leap?

The top schools pick qualified applicants. You're putting too much emphasis on one standardized test. Move on.

Wrong. More recent data suggests that the SAT is a good predictor of success in college and whether or not a student will pursue post-graduate work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

It's just bizarre to think that this is what should be expected of very smart 17-year-olds to attend a top-tier university. It's more like the Westminster Dog Show than a normal adolescence. While their parents may not have started or run non-profits for them, it strains credulity to think they weren't planning how their kids would be looking Ivy-ready many years in advance.

It's not exactly a secret as to why this is how things are now - Tiger parents from other countries who did what was required in their countries of origins for their kids to have a shot at success. But it's totally changed the game, in ways that may not be good for kids' mental health. And it's why many others "just say no" to the insanity and are happier their kids end up at UMD or VT than Princeton or Harvard.

The kids I have met are nice kids. they work pretty hard, but they seem happy. They are just very smart, motivated and accomplished. I would not infer they were tiger-mommed or are suffering from mental illness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

The Asian parents may have not started non profits for their kids but they started all the academic competitions in middle school. Go to any mathcounts contests or science fairs and you will see a lot of kids who have been doing these for years. Just like whites focus on sports, many Asians focus on academic competions. My daughter loves science and I was looking into science fairs and was surprised to learn there are so many consultants who charge top dollars to guide you through the process. There are several paid research programs. I don't have the time or resources to help her through the process so she is cold calling and reaching out to people and labs herself. I am sure she will land something but she has to compete with kids whose parents are knowledgeable and have resources to help them.

+1

Certain cultures network.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is a frosh at an Ivy. His suitemates are nerdy, white and Asian MC kids from all over the country. Mostly pursuing STEM. He calls them "cracked," as in some took several years of post calc-math in HS, are competing in national university math contests, have won national writing awards, speak multiple languages, are skilled musicians, or have published something. These are not regular kids, though they are not the types whose parents started non-profits for them.

It's just bizarre to think that this is what should be expected of very smart 17-year-olds to attend a top-tier university. It's more like the Westminster Dog Show than a normal adolescence. While their parents may not have started or run non-profits for them, it strains credulity to think they weren't planning how their kids would be looking Ivy-ready many years in advance.

It's not exactly a secret as to why this is how things are now - Tiger parents from other countries who did what was required in their countries of origins for their kids to have a shot at success. But it's totally changed the game, in ways that may not be good for kids' mental health. And it's why many others "just say no" to the insanity and are happier their kids end up at UMD or VT than Princeton or Harvard.

After seeing the beginning of some mental health issues in my very smart high stats hs kid due to the huge amount of pressure they are putting on themselves, I recently “just said no” and I have felt a huge lift of exhaustion and sense of relief as I imagine them and am encouraging them to look at (no longer Dartmouth or MIT) perhaps a SLAC or some other strong school they can have a solid education in what they want to study and also have a wonderful time being a college student. I want a child at age 22 who has learned a lot about themselves, been challenged, made amazing friends, taken a variety of mind expanding courses, independent, ready and excited for young adulthood—a first job or grad school—not some beaten down clone who has slogged through hell and back just to say they could get into and graduate from someplace that sounds “impressive”. Obviously not all kids would be like that, HPY is the right fit for some kids who fit those institutions priorities. But more and more it seems kids who are “super high achievers” lack a sense of self because they’ve been so focused on doing things that seem impressive to others for so long, they don’t know how to think for themselves and create their own path.

x1000000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: if unis admitted just on merit, the top schools would be almost all Asian

Using only your myopically narrow definition of "merit," I suppose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not unless they are first gen, rural, a recruitable athlete, URM, or have famous/powerful connections.

Otherwise they go to Big State U with a ton of merit aid and/or the honors college.

I laughed out loud reading this because it is 100% accurate.

I'm biased but my kid graduated with straight As, 33 credits, a 4.6 GPA on a 4.0 scale, 1580 SAT, top 1% of class, multiple published works, an multi-sport athlete, captain of robotics team and savant like skills in his intended major from a full pay family and he goes in only to safeties. White, unhooked male. Everyone knew who my kid was locally- he is genius IQ smart....and at a state flagship honors with merit. LOL. Oh and he went to a seminar on his essay by college AO and they called it "brilliant" so it wasn't a "bad essay". Aside from now seeing the farce this admissions process is (anyone wonder the logic of 60K a year AO's deciding who's worthy or not?) I have learned to accept it is a game you cannot win, you are either "connected" or URM. On the other hand, my kid is surrounded by similar brilliant rejects at his program so what is happening is these kids are not being cancelled, they are establishing new nexuses. Time will tell of the success of the highly coveted school and their filters, I have a hard time believing they are very fine tuned after seeing the test optional, covid-era, dei, legecy preference, bloodbath my kid went through.

The problem is, there are thousands of kids like yours. How are the AO's supposed to distinguish them without flipping a coin? My kid sounds like your kid. absolutely no difference.

OP here. My kid is like pp’s kid. He has perfect grades and test scores. I’m torn how involved DH and I should be getting something on his resume that stands out. We do have the money and resources but it would be all us, not DS. DS is a well rounded kid in all categories. He is not nationally ranked in anything, just usually best at the school or state. I believe this makes him UVA material, not Harvard or Penn. He loves UPenn as does every other kid.

You are the first to acknowledge that it takes the parents to make it happen. All the kids I know who had non profits, businesses, or juggled multiple leadership positions while being a perfect student and artist all had parents doing the work behind the scenes: from writing speeches to finishing art projects, to running the bulk of the non profit. I know parents who set up non profits that served literally not one person. And others who used connections to get awards for their kids. And this is what kills me about where college competition is now. Don’t dismay if your kids ends up in a “third tier” school, odds are they will be sounded by kids with more integrity than at a top 10.

Agree. The top schools are becoming a joke between the unqualified TO students and the wealthy non-profit creators at the other end.

How did you make that leap?

The top schools pick qualified applicants. You're putting too much emphasis on one standardized test. Move on.

Wrong. More recent data suggests that the SAT is a good predictor of success in college and whether or not a student will pursue post-graduate work.

It might predict freshman year success (only), and the top schools have high graduation rates in any case.

The schools determine who is qualified. Not you.

And...you can't answer the question. Figures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not unless they are first gen, rural, a recruitable athlete, URM, or have famous/powerful connections.

Otherwise they go to Big State U with a ton of merit aid and/or the honors college.

I laughed out loud reading this because it is 100% accurate.

I'm biased but my kid graduated with straight As, 33 credits, a 4.6 GPA on a 4.0 scale, 1580 SAT, top 1% of class, multiple published works, an multi-sport athlete, captain of robotics team and savant like skills in his intended major from a full pay family and he goes in only to safeties. White, unhooked male. Everyone knew who my kid was locally- he is genius IQ smart....and at a state flagship honors with merit. LOL. Oh and he went to a seminar on his essay by college AO and they called it "brilliant" so it wasn't a "bad essay". Aside from now seeing the farce this admissions process is (anyone wonder the logic of 60K a year AO's deciding who's worthy or not?) I have learned to accept it is a game you cannot win, you are either "connected" or URM. On the other hand, my kid is surrounded by similar brilliant rejects at his program so what is happening is these kids are not being cancelled, they are establishing new nexuses. Time will tell of the success of the highly coveted school and their filters, I have a hard time believing they are very fine tuned after seeing the test optional, covid-era, dei, legecy preference, bloodbath my kid went through.

The problem is, there are thousands of kids like yours. How are the AO's supposed to distinguish them without flipping a coin? My kid sounds like your kid. absolutely no difference.

OP here. My kid is like pp’s kid. He has perfect grades and test scores. I’m torn how involved DH and I should be getting something on his resume that stands out. We do have the money and resources but it would be all us, not DS. DS is a well rounded kid in all categories. He is not nationally ranked in anything, just usually best at the school or state. I believe this makes him UVA material, not Harvard or Penn. He loves UPenn as does every other kid.

You are the first to acknowledge that it takes the parents to make it happen. All the kids I know who had non profits, businesses, or juggled multiple leadership positions while being a perfect student and artist all had parents doing the work behind the scenes: from writing speeches to finishing art projects, to running the bulk of the non profit. I know parents who set up non profits that served literally not one person. And others who used connections to get awards for their kids. And this is what kills me about where college competition is now. Don’t dismay if your kids ends up in a “third tier” school, odds are they will be sounded by kids with more integrity than at a top 10.

Agree. The top schools are becoming a joke between the unqualified TO students and the wealthy non-profit creators at the other end.

How did you make that leap?

The top schools pick qualified applicants. You're putting too much emphasis on one standardized test. Move on.

Wrong. More recent data suggests that the SAT is a good predictor of success in college and whether or not a student will pursue post-graduate work.

It might predict freshman year success (only), and the top schools have high graduation rates in any case.

The schools determine who is qualified. Not you.

And...you can't answer the question. Figures.

MIT disagrees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: if unis admitted just on merit, the top schools would be almost all Asian

Using only your myopically narrow definition of "merit," I suppose.

Yes, I use the same "myopic" definition that the entire rest of the world outside the USA uses. Sorry your kid wouldn't hack it, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: if unis admitted just on merit, the top schools would be almost all Asian

Using only your myopically narrow definition of "merit," I suppose.

Yes, I use the same "myopic" definition that the entire rest of the world outside the USA uses. Sorry your kid wouldn't hack it, though.

Why should I care about what the rest of the world does, when we live in the USA? My kid is ten and will do just fine, judging from the standardized testing thus far. But we're not raising him that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: if unis admitted just on merit, the top schools would be almost all Asian

Using only your myopically narrow definition of "merit," I suppose.

Yes, I use the same "myopic" definition that the entire rest of the world outside the USA uses. Sorry your kid wouldn't hack it, though.

Why should I care about what the rest of the world does, when we live in the USA? My kid is ten and will do just fine, judging from the standardized testing thus far. But we're not raising him that way.

You need to care because the SC just ruled race-based admissions unconstitutional. You will be judged on stats and accomplishments, metrics at which the Asians excel.