Marriage is a horrible deal for women

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And who are these men, exactly? If you took everyone I know from elementary school to a graduate degree and/or have worked with, maybe 4 or 5% hit it big. Meaning million dollar salaries or WSJ stories, etc. The rest have had mediocre to good careers.

So let me guess, that 4 or 5% magically married DCUM posters who are in shape and run around in yoga pants?

Are you asking about men who make over half a million with SAHM? Hedge fund managers, real estate developers, tech sales, partners at law firms, built and sold own businesses etc. but these men are fine with SAHM wives their marriages last until men cheat , on average

The worst are these 200k guys with wives who also make 200k. This is when the woman is exhausted to the brink of insanity as they tend to be cheap and controlling with resources on home aide and the wives are that cheaper “second shift”

I’m a $230K woman and although a second income would be nice I wouldn’t marry anyone who made less than me. I have made a ton of career mistakes so I figure any competent guy should be out earning me by now.

Exhibit A

Sorry this bothers you. But I’m highly educated, worked hard and sacrificed a lot to get to this income. And most of my female friends make more. So I figure any intelligent hard working guy from similar background could have done the same. If he didn’t something is wrong and we are not compatible.

That is like the top 1% of US salaries. What on earth do these people do? Everybody can't be a lawyer or hedge fund manager.

Why should she not require the top 1% if she grew up in these circles?

I am a recent immigrant who moved here as a teenager. All my peers from back home ( all from UMC homes) who moved here before 25 make 200k with the exception of PhD holders in academia and myself ( I stayed home for almost a decade).

Lawyers, doctors, engineers, public accountants, some pharmacists, some specialist nurses 15-20 years into their careers usually make 200k.

PP is talking generalities, and she will know when to make exceptions to her rule. But at 43, if you come from an UMC background, your only excuse for not making 200k should be that it's not that important to you.

If it's important to PP, why should she not require it from a partner?

Some of you think women should get married to any Tom or Dick who shows up. It's better to be single than married to someone who does not share your worldview.

This is such a pervasive problem. Women should have exceptionally high standards but having any at all really triggers some DCUM posters.

A man married to an average woman gets— at least— $500,000 equivalent services of a surrogate and egg donor if they have two children.

A woman married to an average man gets less than nothing, because he is a net drain on her resources. Donor sperm is not especially costly.

If you’re not getting a top 10-15% man, you’re getting a bad deal.

bad math

How much do you think surrogacy and egg donation costs?

The math was off but not too far off. Surrogacy cost $150k; egg donation could be free but with select designer egg up $40k. The issue is not that but the wife also provides free labor for the totality of raising the children! It is a net drain on her time, more so than for men as they tend to underdeliver with household duties. There was in fact an economic research that women put in these duties over $100k/year in lost pension savings, career opportunities and free labor

The real issue is that women magically fail to count their half.

The child is half hers. The pregnancy is half hers. Raising children is half on her. Why are you using a cost basis of services provided to the third party? Does your chef eat with you? Does your housekeeper live in your house? Does your nanny have rights on the child? No. They deliver the service and leave. They don't consume half of it. They don't own half of it. And they certainly don't bother you with their opinions on how it ought to be done.

Ok, assume $300,000 plus designers eggs another $80,000, divide by two (since you’re on about it only being half his) and you’re still starting marriage with a dude who needs to bring an additional $200,000 (after taxes) into the marriage before you even hit zero. Most don’t.

Designer eggs? Are you really bringing designer-quality eggs to the table? If a standard 37-year old DCUM professional woman was a donor in a catalogue, no one would pick her. They don't pick them for the salary. I mean why not include a private jet and silk sheets while you're at it? Everyone totally gets that.

I sure was. Ivy League and healthy is what most people want in donor eggs.

But it’s still irrelevant. The question is whether marriage is a good deal for women. Most men aren’t coming to the table these days with $200,000 ($400,000 when you consider only half is hers) in after tax assets to contribute to start at level.

They start with youth, I think.

Nevertheless, your calculation is utterly at odds with reality. It is mostly women who initiate the marriage and children discussion, not men. Marriage must be pretty valuable to women to go after it so doggedly. Are they all misguided? Can you even put a price on what a good marriage brings? Who makes up the majority of single parents by choice, men or women?

Men overwhelmingly still propose and initiate marriages— I don’t know where you’re getting your idea that women “pursue it doggedly”. Men also get the disproportion benefits of marriage— approximately $200,000 in free services as discussed, and they also live longer if they’re married. Women, by contrast, have a decreased life expectancy if they marry.

Yeah well single mothers have a lower life expectancy than both of them. So if you want kids, get married.

Raising kids for me is far easier divorced than married. While married, I was doing 100% of child duties. And working. With divorce, he finally started doing child raising duties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unless the husband is rich.

Women do most of the unpaid and unnoticed domestic labor in the home. They use their body to create babies and then do most of the childcare.

If the husband isn’t rich, what does he bring to the table?

I'm happy that you find that marriage is a horrible deal for women. It's the worse deal for men too.
You seem to agree that women are better off as single moms. Men love it. We are on the same. We want to pump some babies in
multiple women and move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An old lady once told me.

First marriage love. Second marriage money.

It should be the opposite.

That exactly describes my ex sister in law. I still think she loves her first husband though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless the husband is rich.

Women do most of the unpaid and unnoticed domestic labor in the home. They use their body to create babies and then do most of the childcare.

If the husband isn’t rich, what does he bring to the table?

Another post from The Coven of Bitter Divorcees.

Another reply from the MRA Incel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do agree with that. As a woman who makes around 300K I work many more hours than men in the same position (they make half a million). I also was routinely passed on promotions, given more admin tasks at work, which resulted in me taking more time/efforts to climb up. If you add the child birth and household duties on top of that (men are traditionally are not great at that, so working women still pull off most on the home front), this results in a huge tax on woman's body, time and own financial stability.

I went through this in my marriage (my ex was well paid, we were roughly equal but he didn't pull off the home duties), and I do not want to remarry unless a candidate can offer a really great lifestyle, which would take many daily tasks off my table. For example, if I could work less hours when I am with my partner, if he is indeed an equal contributor at home, with kids etc. Men should bring more to the table financially if they are not pulling it off at home.

I think I will be partnered but won't remarry after my divorce as it's objectively hard to find such a husband. I've met many guys who are working low stress jobs, live in messy places, travel cheaply, play music after 6pm devoting time to their hobbies and interests, and they don't plan to change their lifestyle for a woman. Being with someone like that would result in me working again like a horse while he rests aside

I guess I don't get what the difference is in "partner" and "marriage" in this scenario. Like all of a sudden if a man is married the woman has to do all the work? Or it's easier to leave if you are "just partnered" versus married? And I don't understand what the deal is with the man in this case making work. You would have to - what clean up his dishes so you live in a mutually tidy environment (so basically, he would make a mess you would wind up cleaning up)??

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:And who are these men, exactly? If you took everyone I know from elementary school to a graduate degree and/or have worked with, maybe 4 or 5% hit it big. Meaning million dollar salaries or WSJ stories, etc. The rest have had mediocre to good careers.

So let me guess, that 4 or 5% magically married DCUM posters who are in shape and run around in yoga pants?

Are you asking about men who make over half a million with SAHM? Hedge fund managers, real estate developers, tech sales, partners at law firms, built and sold own businesses etc. but these men are fine with SAHM wives their marriages last until men cheat , on average

The worst are these 200k guys with wives who also make 200k. This is when the woman is exhausted to the brink of insanity as they tend to be cheap and controlling with resources on home aide and the wives are that cheaper “second shift”

I’m a $230K woman and although a second income would be nice I wouldn’t marry anyone who made less than me. I have made a ton of career mistakes so I figure any competent guy should be out earning me by now.

Exhibit A

Sorry this bothers you. But I’m highly educated, worked hard and sacrificed a lot to get to this income. And most of my female friends make more. So I figure any intelligent hard working guy from similar background could have done the same. If he didn’t something is wrong and we are not compatible.

That is like the top 1% of US salaries. What on earth do these people do? Everybody can't be a lawyer or hedge fund manager.

Why should she not require the top 1% if she grew up in these circles?

I am a recent immigrant who moved here as a teenager. All my peers from back home ( all from UMC homes) who moved here before 25 make 200k with the exception of PhD holders in academia and myself ( I stayed home for almost a decade).

Lawyers, doctors, engineers, public accountants, some pharmacists, some specialist nurses 15-20 years into their careers usually make 200k.

PP is talking generalities, and she will know when to make exceptions to her rule. But at 43, if you come from an UMC background, your only excuse for not making 200k should be that it's not that important to you.

If it's important to PP, why should she not require it from a partner?

Some of you think women should get married to any Tom or Dick who shows up. It's better to be single than married to someone who does not share your worldview.

This is such a pervasive problem. Women should have exceptionally high standards but having any at all really triggers some DCUM posters.

A man married to an average woman gets— at least— $500,000 equivalent services of a surrogate and egg donor if they have two children.

A woman married to an average man gets less than nothing, because he is a net drain on her resources. Donor sperm is not especially costly.

If you’re not getting a top 10-15% man, you’re getting a bad deal.

bad math

How much do you think surrogacy and egg donation costs?

The math was off but not too far off. Surrogacy cost $150k; egg donation could be free but with select designer egg up $40k. The issue is not that but the wife also provides free labor for the totality of raising the children! It is a net drain on her time, more so than for men as they tend to underdeliver with household duties. There was in fact an economic research that women put in these duties over $100k/year in lost pension savings, career opportunities and free labor

The real issue is that women magically fail to count their half.

The child is half hers. The pregnancy is half hers. Raising children is half on her. Why are you using a cost basis of services provided to the third party? Does your chef eat with you? Does your housekeeper live in your house? Does your nanny have rights on the child? No. They deliver the service and leave. They don't consume half of it. They don't own half of it. And they certainly don't bother you with their opinions on how it ought to be done.

Ok, assume $300,000 plus designers eggs another $80,000, divide by two (since you’re on about it only being half his) and you’re still starting marriage with a dude who needs to bring an additional $200,000 (after taxes) into the marriage before you even hit zero. Most don’t.

Designer eggs? Are you really bringing designer-quality eggs to the table? If a standard 37-year old DCUM professional woman was a donor in a catalogue, no one would pick her. They don't pick them for the salary. I mean why not include a private jet and silk sheets while you're at it? Everyone totally gets that.

I sure was. Ivy League and healthy is what most people want in donor eggs.

But it’s still irrelevant. The question is whether marriage is a good deal for women. Most men aren’t coming to the table these days with $200,000 ($400,000 when you consider only half is hers) in after tax assets to contribute to start at level.

They start with youth, I think.

Nevertheless, your calculation is utterly at odds with reality. It is mostly women who initiate the marriage and children discussion, not men. Marriage must be pretty valuable to women to go after it so doggedly. Are they all misguided? Can you even put a price on what a good marriage brings? Who makes up the majority of single parents by choice, men or women?

Men overwhelmingly still propose and initiate marriages— I don’t know where you’re getting your idea that women “pursue it doggedly”. Men also get the disproportion benefits of marriage— approximately $200,000 in free services as discussed, and they also live longer if they’re married. Women, by contrast, have a decreased life expectancy if they marry.

Oh FFS men propose because women bully them into it with ultimatums.

lol at your made up statistics about “free services”.

Married men live longer = correlation not causation

The free services breakdown was already discussed at length above. Try to keep up.

Men are “bullied” into proposing…then why do divorced men remarry at such high rates if it’s such a bad idea?

[Anonymous]

I think what happens is most jobs paying over ~250k or above a certain seniority level expect Someone Else to get the home stuff done. It's probably worse for men.

Of course you've got Bad Bosses at all pay levels with that attitude, where ICs making 80-120k are expected to stay late, jump to it, etc., and are generally looked down on when they have to leave at 3pm for sick kid level of issues. Sorry - for that pay, you're getting 8x5, with occasional longer days telegraphed in advance.

And yes, whoever posted about DC career women (girlboss is typically used for MLM victims), has a point. Attitudes might be different among women in non-HCOL areas of the country.

[Anonymous]

I am a woman in a great marriage for 25 years, and gave been birth WOHM and SAHM. All of these women claiming to know no happy marriages or only one or two must just hang out with low quality, unhappy people. Virtually every couple in know - from our neighborhood, the kids’ schools, my workplace, growing up - is content in their marriage. Well more than half of these marriages involve both spouses working. Sometimes, it just really is you that is the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a woman in a great marriage for 25 years, and gave been birth WOHM and SAHM. All of these women claiming to know no happy marriages or only one or two must just hang out with low quality, unhappy people. Virtually every couple in know - from our neighborhood, the kids’ schools, my workplace, growing up - is content in their marriage. Well more than half of these marriages involve both spouses working. Sometimes, it just really is you that is the problem.

I bet the women you know could not support themselves divorced. I do not have the time to hang out with people. I work a lot: I was married. It was awful. Double the work while he skated along at home. Women with demanding careers are likely unlike people you know…you do not know what is going on in others marriages. Our neighbors are still shocked we divorced. It looked perfect. It was awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a woman in a great marriage for 25 years, and gave been birth WOHM and SAHM. All of these women claiming to know no happy marriages or only one or two must just hang out with low quality, unhappy people. Virtually every couple in know - from our neighborhood, the kids’ schools, my workplace, growing up - is content in their marriage. Well more than half of these marriages involve both spouses working. Sometimes, it just really is you that is the problem.

I bet the women you know could not support themselves divorced. I do not have the time to hang out with people. I work a lot: I was married. It was awful. Double the work while he skated along at home. Women with demanding careers are likely unlike people you know…you do not know what is going on in others marriages. Our neighbors are still shocked we divorced. It looked perfect. It was awful.

Dp. This may blow your mind: I sah AND dh contributes to the running of the household. He washes dishes every night, he cooks or helps me cook dinner most nights, he grocery shops on a weekend morning, he performs general maintenance around the house, etc, etc AND he is loving and attentive to me and our kids. We are not financially rich, we're solidly middle class, but we are content with our lives. He could earn much more, but we'd never see him.

[Anonymous]

I don’t understand why anyone gets worked up over the idea that an institution designed by men, for the benefit of men, is not magically equally good for women. Why would we expect it to be?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a woman in a great marriage for 25 years, and gave been birth WOHM and SAHM. All of these women claiming to know no happy marriages or only one or two must just hang out with low quality, unhappy people. Virtually every couple in know - from our neighborhood, the kids’ schools, my workplace, growing up - is content in their marriage. Well more than half of these marriages involve both spouses working. Sometimes, it just really is you that is the problem.

I bet the women you know could not support themselves divorced. I do not have the time to hang out with people. I work a lot: I was married. It was awful. Double the work while he skated along at home. Women with demanding careers are likely unlike people you know…you do not know what is going on in others marriages. Our neighbors are still shocked we divorced. It looked perfect. It was awful.

I am with you here, PP. My marriage to exH looked picture perfect on Facebook page, and many were jealous. Nobody saw how I was trying to put my child to bed while he was partying in the kitchen with his executive friends, loudly talking and all drunk (and God forbid me going there ask to be quieter - you hate my friends scene would follow afterwards!). Nobody saw it was only me doing exercises with our autistic child rushing back home from work, while he was booking a boat to sail with mistress in Greece. And so on. He also raped me during our separation (walked into shower, held my neck, and performed rough backdoor s..x), and wouldn't sign property settlement agreement out of anger I wouldn't f...k him voluntary anymore. Screamed he would kill me and I would be working at Walmart. Only holding that assault against him prevented the forced sale of a business that I built from the scratch, thanks to my family attorneys. My marriage was a living hell and I barely made it out alive.

What you think is a picture perfect marriage is often not like that behind the walls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless the husband is rich.

Women do most of the unpaid and unnoticed domestic labor in the home. They use their body to create babies and then do most of the childcare.

If the husband isn’t rich, what does he bring to the table?

Another post from The Coven of Bitter Divorcees.

+1
There's a reason why guys never date American women when there are other options available. So frumpy and horrible attitudes.

Honestly, these threads make me worry for my son. I hope that he does not marry a typical DC metro woman bc the attitudes are just awful. I often wonder if leaving this area and returning to my home state would be better for the kids future prospects. Everyone is just so miserable here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unless the husband is rich.

Women do most of the unpaid and unnoticed domestic labor in the home. They use their body to create babies and then do most of the childcare.

If the husband isn’t rich, what does he bring to the table?

Another post from The Coven of Bitter Divorcees.

+1
There's a reason why guys never date American women when there are other options available. So frumpy and horrible attitudes.

Honestly, these threads make me worry for my son. I hope that he does not marry a typical DC metro woman bc the attitudes are just awful. I often wonder if leaving this area and returning to my home state would be better for the kids future prospects. Everyone is just so miserable here.

I don't know where you live, but where I live is not like this. But the wealthier areas full of competitive strivers do give me a window into what you're talking about. A lot of kids being raised by strangers because both parents work a lot; the kids are spoiled yet driven to achieve things that will make the parents look good; parents spend massive amounts of money on superficial nonsense; and that is the whole scene in those places -- just pervasive. Point being, you can avoid this misery, but you have to keep your ego in check.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Being a single mother who isn’t poor is the best.

Say more? Considering this for myself. I'd have less money but my job pays fine.

I wouldn’t do this unless you can really afford a lot of help, or live near relatives that would be willing to help.

What? The dad will likely get 50% custody. I am not poor or have help or relatives. Unnecessary with shared custody.

I didn't realize you meant divorcing. I thought you meant being a single mom from the beginning (like donor sperm).