Do men really not care about a woman’s career?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH is a partner in a financial services firm. All of the partners and senior associates are married to someone with at least a bachelor's degree, and all of the partners and senior associates who are under 50 are married to someone with an advanced degree (doctor, lawyer, MBA, and nonprofit). Purely anecdotal, but that's our experience. I see a similar sampling among our friends, but admittedly most of my closest girlfriends are from school.

For the 100th time, please separate the degree from employment status.

Are all partners and senior associates married to someone who work in those jobs?

Remember, hbs alumna sahm more than ttt mba alumna.

The op asked about employment status not educational level.

Too many in this thread of mixing the two.

You can’t group all men together.

Dh and I met in grad school so most people we associate with are graduate school educated. We met in school so I didn’t even have a career when we met. I was ambitious and had a good career. I out earned him when we got married. Now he makes a seven figure income and I stay home.

Dh is successful as are most of his colleagues. I don’t think anyone really cares about anyone else’s wife. We are all educated. I went to Harvard. Others went to Penn or Columbia. No one cares.

OK, do you not hear the cognitive dissonance here? Of course people care! You don't just accidentally end up with wives who all went to Ivies and not care at all. You might not talk about it or emphasize it because that's considered gauche, but come on now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

Let’s be real. Many of these high powered careers aren’t that interesting. My eyes glaze over when a man or woman start talking about their legal work. It’s much more interesting talking to someone who took an alternate path or cultivated their own interests that does not involve work.

[Anonymous]

And those interesting careers you talk about like astronaut are few and far in between. You find more lawyer, consultant and government paper pushers and drones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

Let’s be real. Many of these high powered careers aren’t that interesting. My eyes glaze over when a man or woman start talking about their legal work. It’s much more interesting talking to someone who took an alternate path or cultivated their own interests that does not involve work.

Choose one that is, then! My women friends do everything from run ICU units to make human rights policy. They study RNA, write novels, go on archaeological digs, and are at the top of their fields. They are also devoted to their families. Maybe you are of an older generation, but there are lots of interesting things for women to do nowadays besides stay home and have a hobby. As one of my women teachers once said "we can't let men do all the fun stuff."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

Let’s be real. Many of these high powered careers aren’t that interesting. My eyes glaze over when a man or woman start talking about their legal work. It’s much more interesting talking to someone who took an alternate path or cultivated their own interests that does not involve work.

Choose one that is, then! My women friends do everything from run ICU units to make human rights policy. They study RNA, write novels, go on archaeological digs, and are at the top of their fields. They are also devoted to their families. Maybe you are of an older generation, but there are lots of interesting things for women to do nowadays besides stay home and have a hobby. As one of my women teachers once said "we can't let men do all the fun stuff."

I'm 51 and you described me and my friends.

[Anonymous]

This^. Its not like everyone is doing meaningful work, enjoying doing it, loves their work environment, has life-work balance and making great money. Its quite the opposite for majority. Humans were conned by capitalism into thinking their jobs define them and make them a worthy human being.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

Let’s be real. Many of these high powered careers aren’t that interesting. My eyes glaze over when a man or woman start talking about their legal work. It’s much more interesting talking to someone who took an alternate path or cultivated their own interests that does not involve work.

Choose one that is, then! My women friends do everything from run ICU units to make human rights policy. They study RNA, write novels, go on archaeological digs, and are at the top of their fields. They are also devoted to their families. Maybe you are of an older generation, but there are lots of interesting things for women to do nowadays besides stay home and have a hobby. As one of my women teachers once said "we can't let men do all the fun stuff."

You just mentioned a whole bunch of careers that don’t earn a lot of money. Maybe asides from running icu units. They could very well be hobby jobs. Yet again another example that men don’t care about high powered careers. They are pretty much doing hobbies, just a definition of is it a job earning some money or not.

[Anonymous]

There are happy and unhappy people everywhere, inside and outside of homes. Mental health crisis isn't a speciality of SHAMs and SAHDs, suicide rate isn't highest among them. There are plenty if unhappy successful people resenting lives and jobs and relationships.

This simplistic idea of one difference defining you is naive and ludicrous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think in reality that if a woman looked exactly like Meagan Fox, but worked as a Nanny she could still get any man she wanted.

Because overall men are very visually stimulated.

Not all > but most. 😉

I don’t know. I don’t think the male fantasy is that she looks like Meagan Fox and works as a nanny. I think the male fantasy is that she looks cute enough, but also that because she is a nanny she has no ambition or desires in life, and will happily spend her days washing his dirty socks and cooking his favorite meals, then have hot sex by night. I think in this fantasy she also has close friends and family that she can talk to about her problems, so she doesn’t have to bother him with them, but he never ever has to meet them, and she won’t mind moving away from them forever if that’s what’s best for him or his career.
I think that she also has children, but they don’t take away from her devotion to him, and he only has to see them for an hour a day after they are bathed and fed (until, of course, they reach adolescence. Then he will attend all of their games where they are the star player).

I don’t know a single UMC guy with the fantasy to marry someone who works as a nanny. If you’re educated and of an aspirational class, you have a nanny to do the laundry and prep dinner while your wife kicks ass at her amazing dream job. You’re capable of cooking amazing gourmet meals yourself and can afford the best restaurants. And you spend a lot of your free time with your children because it’s a privilege to get to know them.

Not much talk about problems and hot sex, sure. Though most of the men I meet socially in this class seem to pride themselves on being emotionally and intellectually available for deeper conversation.

What you’re describing sounds pretty basic and retrograde. It might be if guys are not very educated they don’t care what their wife does or they have this idea that women should be caretakers, but most men of a certain class want to be married to women who are “self-actualized” and can be an “equal companion” professionally and intellectually. That makes the whole family have a higher status. They have also internalized higher standards for themselves, because they think real intimacy involves connecting with your partner in a deeper way. Not saying any of this is better, necessarily, just saying that this is how these guys think. I went to school at Ivy+ and those guys might bang a nanny in the summer but they all dream of marrying a woman who is brilliant, accomplished, and beautiful and kind and all the rest. They dream of being a power couple.

Both of these fantasies involve a woman doing all of the caretaking. Whether it’s the nanny turned wife or the nanny acting as nanny, there seems to be an assumption that there are many, many women out there who want nothing more than to take care of all of the mundane aspects of some man’s life in order to support his flourishing career.
These fantasy female caretakers don’t even seem to want a social life of their own. They are available 24/7, do everything to a high standard, never complain, and are happy to just support from the background.

Big difference between being a nanny and being a woman who’s expected to fill that role after marriage.

Nanny gets a pay check and goes home at night. Nanny can quit at any time and get a different job, even start a different career. It’s not the same thing. For some people being a nanny is the best job they can get given the labor market so that’s the job they want. Very few UMC women, who are educated into a sense of unlimited life possibilities, dream of being a SAHM and not realizing any of their own talents and dreams. Very few women who have any sense of what’s out there will be happy indefinitely as SAHMs.

Not every educated women is ambitious or extrovert nor does all women see raising their own children as being a nanny, they see it as being a mother.

Completely agree. I met my wife in law school. While she had a few prestigious jobs after law school, she has been a SAHM for years. She has always felt that the financial and "ego" hit was well worth it to have the extra time with kids and family. We know plenty of other families like this. I think you see it less in this area and other expensive, competitive metros for lots of reasons -- people cannot afford to have only one working parent; people want to live a more lavish lifestyle than they could on one income; people are competitive and judgmental about professional accomplishments; etc.

Come back to us in ten years when you and your wife have marital issues due to her resentment.

I’m like PP’s wife and I have been a SAHM for 12 years. DH is a big law partner, I’m totally happy not using my my law degree. In fact I finally let my bar membership lapse and it feels good.

The only reason I can see myself getting resentful is if DH stopped respecting what I do. Like if he started acting like his paycheck was his money and not our money. If I had sacrificed my career for his own and he started being an ass about money, yeah I’d resent him. Luckily that’s not our dynamic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think in reality that if a woman looked exactly like Meagan Fox, but worked as a Nanny she could still get any man she wanted.

Because overall men are very visually stimulated.

Not all > but most. 😉

I don’t know. I don’t think the male fantasy is that she looks like Meagan Fox and works as a nanny. I think the male fantasy is that she looks cute enough, but also that because she is a nanny she has no ambition or desires in life, and will happily spend her days washing his dirty socks and cooking his favorite meals, then have hot sex by night. I think in this fantasy she also has close friends and family that she can talk to about her problems, so she doesn’t have to bother him with them, but he never ever has to meet them, and she won’t mind moving away from them forever if that’s what’s best for him or his career.
I think that she also has children, but they don’t take away from her devotion to him, and he only has to see them for an hour a day after they are bathed and fed (until, of course, they reach adolescence. Then he will attend all of their games where they are the star player).

I don’t know a single UMC guy with the fantasy to marry someone who works as a nanny. If you’re educated and of an aspirational class, you have a nanny to do the laundry and prep dinner while your wife kicks ass at her amazing dream job. You’re capable of cooking amazing gourmet meals yourself and can afford the best restaurants. And you spend a lot of your free time with your children because it’s a privilege to get to know them.

Not much talk about problems and hot sex, sure. Though most of the men I meet socially in this class seem to pride themselves on being emotionally and intellectually available for deeper conversation.

What you’re describing sounds pretty basic and retrograde. It might be if guys are not very educated they don’t care what their wife does or they have this idea that women should be caretakers, but most men of a certain class want to be married to women who are “self-actualized” and can be an “equal companion” professionally and intellectually. That makes the whole family have a higher status. They have also internalized higher standards for themselves, because they think real intimacy involves connecting with your partner in a deeper way. Not saying any of this is better, necessarily, just saying that this is how these guys think. I went to school at Ivy+ and those guys might bang a nanny in the summer but they all dream of marrying a woman who is brilliant, accomplished, and beautiful and kind and all the rest. They dream of being a power couple.

Both of these fantasies involve a woman doing all of the caretaking. Whether it’s the nanny turned wife or the nanny acting as nanny, there seems to be an assumption that there are many, many women out there who want nothing more than to take care of all of the mundane aspects of some man’s life in order to support his flourishing career.
These fantasy female caretakers don’t even seem to want a social life of their own. They are available 24/7, do everything to a high standard, never complain, and are happy to just support from the background.

Big difference between being a nanny and being a woman who’s expected to fill that role after marriage.

Nanny gets a pay check and goes home at night. Nanny can quit at any time and get a different job, even start a different career. It’s not the same thing. For some people being a nanny is the best job they can get given the labor market so that’s the job they want. Very few UMC women, who are educated into a sense of unlimited life possibilities, dream of being a SAHM and not realizing any of their own talents and dreams. Very few women who have any sense of what’s out there will be happy indefinitely as SAHMs.

Not every educated women is ambitious or extrovert nor does all women see raising their own children as being a nanny, they see it as being a mother.

Completely agree. I met my wife in law school. While she had a few prestigious jobs after law school, she has been a SAHM for years. She has always felt that the financial and "ego" hit was well worth it to have the extra time with kids and family. We know plenty of other families like this. I think you see it less in this area and other expensive, competitive metros for lots of reasons -- people cannot afford to have only one working parent; people want to live a more lavish lifestyle than they could on one income; people are competitive and judgmental about professional accomplishments; etc.

Come back to us in ten years when you and your wife have marital issues due to her resentment.

I’m like PP’s wife and I have been a SAHM for 12 years. DH is a big law partner, I’m totally happy not using my my law degree. In fact I finally let my bar membership lapse and it feels good.

The only reason I can see myself getting resentful is if DH stopped respecting what I do. Like if he started acting like his paycheck was his money and not our money. If I had sacrificed my career for his own and he started being an ass about money, yeah I’d resent him. Luckily that’s not our dynamic.

That's my big fear and the only thing that keeps me going in my own legal career even though DH now makes 7 figures. My dad was a total ass with money to my mom and I don't think I can get past it, so I keep working, but I every year I go in and tell them I'm working 100 hours less than the last.

[Anonymous]

There are lots introvert people who prefer sanctity if home and feel their best among loved ones, spending their day making small talk with randos can get old very fast for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are lots introvert people who prefer sanctity if home and feel their best among loved ones, spending their day making small talk with randos can get old very fast for them.

That’s not really what happens at work. But whatever makes you feel better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education is a status symbol. It’s separate from actually holding a job. The UMC guy marries a highly educated woman as a status symbol. Whether she continues working is another matter.

As a status symbol? How about because you want to spend time with someone who is well educated. You will have to talk to this person over many dinners, long car rides and vacations. They will be co- raising your children. to my way of thinking, education is not a status symbol, but you are probably the type of person who would choose your kid's college based upon having a bumper sticker that will impress the neighbors.

Obviously compatibility is a given. Does not negate that a high educated wife that may not choose to work is a status symbol. It makes moving in certain social circles easier. What the woman does with her education after is not important, a woman with a high powered career doesn’t make her a more interesting partner.

That's true to some extent, except having a career is shorthand for a lot of things that do make someone a more interesting partner. Having your own life and passions, having a world of people and projects, challenging yourself to meet externally defined goals, being involved in something that is of value and benefit to society, developing your own skills and talents, learning new things, defining your own path... sure, you could volunteer a bit here and there and take up yoga, but that's usually not going to satisfy someone who has any fire in the belly. I see a lot of wealthy women in my circle who did not have careers or dropped out and they are restless. They dabble here and there in old hobbies and take up temporary causes, but they are all a bit dissatisfied with tennis in the morning and dinner planning in the afternoon. They would not admit it because it's not considered acceptable, but you can't educate women to the level that they could be astronauts or judges and then stick them in a car to do drop off/ pick up. It just doesn't work that way.

Let’s be real. Many of these high powered careers aren’t that interesting. My eyes glaze over when a man or woman start talking about their legal work. It’s much more interesting talking to someone who took an alternate path or cultivated their own interests that does not involve work.

Choose one that is, then! My women friends do everything from run ICU units to make human rights policy. They study RNA, write novels, go on archaeological digs, and are at the top of their fields. They are also devoted to their families. Maybe you are of an older generation, but there are lots of interesting things for women to do nowadays besides stay home and have a hobby. As one of my women teachers once said "we can't let men do all the fun stuff."

You just mentioned a whole bunch of careers that don’t earn a lot of money. Maybe asides from running icu units. They could very well be hobby jobs. Yet again another example that men don’t care about high powered careers. They are pretty much doing hobbies, just a definition of is it a job earning some money or not.

Really? My scientist friend makes $200k and so does the one running a human rights center. No idea what the novelist makes, she’s on many bestseller lists so definitely not a hobby job. Not sure if you are clear on the difference between a career and a hobby job.