NYT Article on Open Marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

Some Pacific Island cultures had more equality for women along with polygamy for both men and women.

I think strict monogamy for women along with their oppression tends to arise out of agrarian and pastoral traditions. Property and inheritance become more important concepts which means the paternity of children becomes more important. Women come to rank alongside livestock.

Which cultures are these?

Vanatinai of Papua New Guinea.

So your claim is based on one isolated tribe consisting of a few thousand people?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

This is the truth. Monogamy is like democracy -- a terrible idea but better than the alternative.

At least as for as marriages with children are concerned. For people who don't have kids, and especially if they are both financially independent, I think a broader range of arrangements can work. With kids, monogamy is hard to beat.

Agreed marriage is not especially significant for those who are not parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

This is the truth. Monogamy is like democracy -- a terrible idea but better than the alternative.

At least as for as marriages with children are concerned. For people who don't have kids, and especially if they are both financially independent, I think a broader range of arrangements can work. With kids, monogamy is hard to beat.

Agreed marriage is not especially significant for those who are not parents.

Marriage isn’t period . As a guy there is no benefit from marriage

[Anonymous]

More press on polyamory: https://www.thecut.com/_pages/clr9h4wp800000ikblq8dqn0e.html?utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=nym&utm_medium=s1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the seventies as a small child surrounded by couples with "open" marriages. It was a lot more like wife swapping, really. A lot of people did get hurt. Some parents I know even got AIDS... but that wouldn't be my concern now, my concern now is, marriage and kids works as a partnership. No matter how stable you think your open marriage is, it's never that. Without the binary of just having a self and an other, there's a lot more to balance. I also grew up in the seventies as a small child surrounded by people who couldn't stop talking about how progressive and wonderful and cool they were for having their open marriages... meanwhile we kids were thrown together and torn apart by whom our parents were or weren't sleeping with. Nothing like telling the school counselor, "Beth isn't my mom, she's just my dad's girlfriend. But yeah, she has permission to get me from school."

Thanks for sharing the perspective of the now grown child. I think adults get lost in their own worlds sometimes, with all sorts of things (work, marriage, divorce, drama, trauma - anything). It’s helpful to see this narrative.

Agreed.

People who want to live this way shouldn't have kids. They are too selfish.

The world would be a better place if many immature adults just skipped having kids and did what they really want to do...live for themselves.

I kinda agree, but biological and social influence is real. As a woman who’s kids are now older elementary age, I feel myself reawakening as it were.

My kids are awesome and I love them, but now that my hormones are changing and the kids are smelly and opinionated I’m…restless.

I’ve read enough books to know I’m not alone. There’s a million books, drugs, etc to try and suppress or overcome.

Or I can engage in discreet, consensual extramarital relationships with likeminded people. I’m a happier person and therefore a better wife and partner.

THIS!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

Some Pacific Island cultures had more equality for women along with polygamy for both men and women.

I think strict monogamy for women along with their oppression tends to arise out of agrarian and pastoral traditions. Property and inheritance become more important concepts which means the paternity of children becomes more important. Women come to rank alongside livestock.

Which cultures are these?

Vanatinai of Papua New Guinea.

I don’t think there is a more sexist society than PNG. They literally rape women in the streets. A good friend worked there as a librarian and had to be escorted everywhere by two security guards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

Some Pacific Island cultures had more equality for women along with polygamy for both men and women.

I think strict monogamy for women along with their oppression tends to arise out of agrarian and pastoral traditions. Property and inheritance become more important concepts which means the paternity of children becomes more important. Women come to rank alongside livestock.

Which cultures are these?

Vanatinai of Papua New Guinea.

I don’t think there is a more sexist society than PNG. They literally rape women in the streets. A good friend worked there as a librarian and had to be escorted everywhere by two security guards.

There is more than one culture in PNG.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

This is the truth. Monogamy is like democracy -- a terrible idea but better than the alternative.

At least as for as marriages with children are concerned. For people who don't have kids, and especially if they are both financially independent, I think a broader range of arrangements can work. With kids, monogamy is hard to beat.

Agreed marriage is not especially significant for those who are not parents.

Marriage isn’t period . As a guy there is no benefit from marriage

That is just not true. Unless you don’t care about the outcomes for your biological offspring. Married people are also shown to be happier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple where he is a cuckold. She essentially sees other guys sometimes and he doesn't have any other partners.

Not sure of the internal workings of their relationship and how they organize it but seems like a win for her.

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

Some Pacific Island cultures had more equality for women along with polygamy for both men and women.

I think strict monogamy for women along with their oppression tends to arise out of agrarian and pastoral traditions. Property and inheritance become more important concepts which means the paternity of children becomes more important. Women come to rank alongside livestock.

Which cultures are these?

Vanatinai of Papua New Guinea.

I don’t think there is a more sexist society than PNG. They literally rape women in the streets. A good friend worked there as a librarian and had to be escorted everywhere by two security guards.

Honestly the only people who think polyamory works are those who don't actually know any communities who practice it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple where he is a cuckold. She essentially sees other guys sometimes and he doesn't have any other partners.

Not sure of the internal workings of their relationship and how they organize it but seems like a win for her.

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

Would like to hear his side of this story

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple where he is a cuckold. She essentially sees other guys sometimes and he doesn't have any other partners.

Not sure of the internal workings of their relationship and how they organize it but seems like a win for her.

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

Would like to hear his side of this story

He loves it. He’s even watched a couple of times. It’s the dynamic of our relationship

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple where he is a cuckold. She essentially sees other guys sometimes and he doesn't have any other partners.

Not sure of the internal workings of their relationship and how they organize it but seems like a win for her.

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

Would like to hear his side of this story

He loves it. He’s even watched a couple of times. It’s the dynamic of our relationship

And when your kids talk about it to their friends during recess, everyone claps.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know a couple where he is a cuckold. She essentially sees other guys sometimes and he doesn't have any other partners.

Not sure of the internal workings of their relationship and how they organize it but seems like a win for her.

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

Would like to hear his side of this story

He loves it. He’s even watched a couple of times. It’s the dynamic of our relationship

And when your kids talk about it to their friends during recess, everyone claps.

why would they know?

[Anonymous]

I’m in a marriage like that. No downside for me! He stays at home with kids sometimes when I see my bull. Couldn’t be happier

Even the language you use to describe this is so ick - the other man isn’t even a person, just a “bull” to use for your pleasure.