NYT Article on Open Marriage

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

They've worked well for millennia for the majority of people

Worked well in what way?

Most societies throughout human history have been polygamous and they are associated with much worse outcomes for women and children (abuse) and in some ways worse for most men as well. There are many benefits to society, women, and children when monogamy is the standard.

. Polygamous for men and women? Societies wheee women had financial independence / equality with men?

Are there societies where women have equality with men?

Yes, the Netherlands, and they're monogamous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."

It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.

lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.

It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.

Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.

I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.

The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.

The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.

NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.

The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.

DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.

To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.

OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???

You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?

At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?

“Hey, can we discuss opening up the marriage because I want to have sex with other people (that I probably already have my eye on) is not exactly the same as “You know, I really think I’d like if you gave me a hall pass for Margot Robbie.”

So you’d rather be cheated on. Noted. Ignorance is bliss, I guess!

You are an absolute idiot. Just a blithering moron. It’;s good to know, though, that your partner can just walk all over you….and all with your consent too! I’m sure you’re just so empowered! I’m sure all the stress and jealousy and discussion about primaries and secondaries is just so growth-inspiring! You should write an article in the Post.

If my partner has a problem in the marriage, he can be an adult and discuss it with me without giving me the “suggestion” but really ultimatum of sleeping with other people.

Oh but if your spouse has trotted this line out to you and you’ve said no? I hope you’ve looked into divorce lawyers. Your issues aren’t going to go away because of a two letter word. Your union is over, whether it’s now or in a few years. Too bad you don’t know it yet.

Hon, you've no idea who you're talking to or what you're talking about. Frankly women do much better than men in open relationships--it's kind of a joke in the community that they're spoiled for choice. It's the best of both worlds.

A community full of humiliated, butt-of-the-joke husbands who get the worst of both worlds isn’t really the sell you think it is. Sounds like even if you’re doing better, you’re still picking from a bunch of losers.

You're forgetting that plenty of unattached guys are willing to date non-monagamous women. So for lots of women it can be exciting. For a while...

Does is bother these men to know that they are fulfilling a sexual fantasy of another man? Are a lot of them bisexual?

That’s rarely the case. Usually he’s tolerant. Trying to be supportive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."

It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.

lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.

It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.

Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.

I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.

The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.

The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.

NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.

The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.

DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.

To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.

OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???

You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?

At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?

“Hey, can we discuss opening up the marriage because I want to have sex with other people (that I probably already have my eye on) is not exactly the same as “You know, I really think I’d like if you gave me a hall pass for Margot Robbie.”

So you’d rather be cheated on. Noted. Ignorance is bliss, I guess!

You are an absolute idiot. Just a blithering moron. It’;s good to know, though, that your partner can just walk all over you….and all with your consent too! I’m sure you’re just so empowered! I’m sure all the stress and jealousy and discussion about primaries and secondaries is just so growth-inspiring! You should write an article in the Post.

If my partner has a problem in the marriage, he can be an adult and discuss it with me without giving me the “suggestion” but really ultimatum of sleeping with other people.

Oh but if your spouse has trotted this line out to you and you’ve said no? I hope you’ve looked into divorce lawyers. Your issues aren’t going to go away because of a two letter word. Your union is over, whether it’s now or in a few years. Too bad you don’t know it yet.

Hon, you've no idea who you're talking to or what you're talking about. Frankly women do much better than men in open relationships--it's kind of a joke in the community that they're spoiled for choice. It's the best of both worlds.

A community full of humiliated, butt-of-the-joke husbands who get the worst of both worlds isn’t really the sell you think it is. Sounds like even if you’re doing better, you’re still picking from a bunch of losers.

You're forgetting that plenty of unattached guys are willing to date non-monagamous women. So for lots of women it can be exciting. For a while...

Does is bother these men to know that they are fulfilling a sexual fantasy of another man? Are a lot of them bisexual?

That’s rarely the case. Usually he’s tolerant. Trying to be supportive.

I think it’s nearly always the case. Someone posted a study done by a couple of psychologists earlier in the thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

Op here, I totally agree with this!

But if we’re not built for long term monogamy, and we’re definitely not built for polyamory what’s the answer?

[Anonymous]

Having sex with new people? - IN

Poly relationships where you have navigate schedules, kids, emotions, etc of 4-5 people? - OUT

I will say now that our oldest has turned 5 and we’ve started socializing more with other parents, these poly/open marriages are way more prevalent than we realized. People will casually drop it into conversation - “oh our triad partner Moira was telling me about this new Netflix show….”

It seems to be something that couples take up once the kids get a bit older/independent and they are beyond the intensive pre-kindergarten years.

[Anonymous]

I'm single and the dating apps are chalk full of poly men now. I'm not into it for myself but I did meet up with one ENM guy when I was visiting another city. The strangest trend though is the married couples looking for a girlfriend. Like not even just for threesomes. They seem to want to "date" someone...together. It's wild out there!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, but one of the major tenets of marriage is "forsaking all others."

It's just a way to feel good about cheating. Don't take it too seriously.

lol, it’s not cheating if both partners agree to it.

It’s worse than cheating if one partner is pressured into it.

Everyone has to stand up for what they want in a marriage. There’s a door if you want to leave.

I mean, generally healthy marriages are not approached like business negotiations between adversaries.

The fact that that’s what you took away from my statement tells me you have a closed mind about this. The point is, everyone has their limits. If you allow someone to push yours, then you’re complicit in that. But some people love being victims. Shrug.

The fact that you cannot understand why what you wrote is so dysfunctional says it all. It also really seems to indicate that the power play of “negotiating boundaries” is what some polyamorous people are really into. Meanwhile, healthy relationships (of all types) are built of empathy and mutual deference, not asserting your own wants at every point and making your partner “stand up” for themselves constantly.

NP. Agree. It's one thing to tell your partner that you have unmet needs and you want to work with them to try to have those needs met with them. That's not putting the union at risk. It might be putting the status quo at risk, but for a lot of LTRs the status quo is not sustainable.

The moment you say to your partner "I want to open up" you are changing it forever. There is no going back. The union is different from that point forward.

DP but really? I wouldn’t feel that way at all if my DH came to me and said he wanted to open it up. That’s just a question. Like sometimes he comes to me and says “maybe we should move to an apartment in the city” and that doesn’t mean we will, although we could, it’s just the beginning of a conversation about how we’re both doing.

To me an affair is a betrayal. Talking about how you maybe want one and want to see if there’s an okay to do it within the marriage isn’t a betrayal at all. Even if the answer is a strong no.

OH FFS, wanted to move to the city and wanting to sleep with someone else is in no way, shape or form the same thing. Your spouse has basically copped to fantasizing about others because you’re not satisfactory in some way. You think that’s the same as “hey, maybe we as a unit should think about living in the city”???

You think an affair is such a betrayal but not if your partner tells you first. I suspect your reply will be “Well, I can always say no”. And yes, you can and then walk around with the knowledge that your spouse wants other people and the only thing stopping him is you, you who apparently wasn’t enough in the first place. I’m sure your union will be totally exactly the same as it was before! What are you, a cyborg?

At best, maybe PP means that she would understand what he was saying was a fantasy and wouldn’t be threatened?

“Hey, can we discuss opening up the marriage because I want to have sex with other people (that I probably already have my eye on) is not exactly the same as “You know, I really think I’d like if you gave me a hall pass for Margot Robbie.”

So you’d rather be cheated on. Noted. Ignorance is bliss, I guess!

You are an absolute idiot. Just a blithering moron. It’;s good to know, though, that your partner can just walk all over you….and all with your consent too! I’m sure you’re just so empowered! I’m sure all the stress and jealousy and discussion about primaries and secondaries is just so growth-inspiring! You should write an article in the Post.

If my partner has a problem in the marriage, he can be an adult and discuss it with me without giving me the “suggestion” but really ultimatum of sleeping with other people.

Oh but if your spouse has trotted this line out to you and you’ve said no? I hope you’ve looked into divorce lawyers. Your issues aren’t going to go away because of a two letter word. Your union is over, whether it’s now or in a few years. Too bad you don’t know it yet.

Hon, you've no idea who you're talking to or what you're talking about. Frankly women do much better than men in open relationships--it's kind of a joke in the community that they're spoiled for choice. It's the best of both worlds.

A community full of humiliated, butt-of-the-joke husbands who get the worst of both worlds isn’t really the sell you think it is. Sounds like even if you’re doing better, you’re still picking from a bunch of losers.

I regret to inform you there are many, many husbands who are extremely aroused by this “humiliation”

Again, I really wish you’d keep your emotional sadomasochism and fetishistic exhibitionism to yourselves. The public is not a willing or appropriate participant.

I have no idea why you’re so upset with me. I don’t participate in this kind of thing, just pointing out the reality for the many people who are confused.

[Anonymous]

I've done some research on how pre-roman societies viewed relationships and marriage. What I learned from ancient Egypt and certain Indigenous tribes were that the societal expectation was a long term pair bond or marriage, but it was acceptable on certain religious holidays or feast days to have no strings attached sex with others.
Outside of the celebration days, outside sex was considered cheating and socially unacceptable. Having emotional interactions with another outside of marriage was also forbidden.

It seemed like the healthiest way to do nonmonogamy to me. There's only one romantic connection being nurtured, both people are hooking up at the same time on the same date so nobody feels left out and alone, and you get to satisfy any desire to try out something new with clear boundaries put in place with the hookup partners. Maybe marriage with infrequent swinging is the way to go. Who knows?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people tend to talk past each other on this issue. I think it is simultaneously true that: 1. Open marriages work very well for a small group of people, who reasonably resent the social opprobrium against the practice and advocate for it because it works really well for them ; 2. Open marriages are a catastrophe for a much larger group of people; and 3. Normalizing open marriages will inevitably result in pressure on monogamous-preferring spouses who don’t want to open the marriage along the lines of “you are unreasonable not to open the marriage, it has gone mainstream and all the cool kids are doing it.” Yes they can say no, but it’s much harder to once the practice becomes widespread.

I’d say that this holds true for monogamous marriages as well - they work well for only a small group of people. Read the All or Nothing Marriage.

It's a lot easier for two unhappy people to maintain a partnership/union/whatever than it is for a chain of people.

I don't think many people are built for many years of monogamy. But I think far fewer are built for many years (or even months) of polyamory.

Op here, I totally agree with this!

But if we’re not built for long term monogamy, and we’re definitely not built for polyamory what’s the answer?

Serial monogamy.

But that stinks for kids unless we live in small communal societies.

[Anonymous]

“Hey hunny, the New York Times, New Yorker, and New York Magazine all have articles about how-to get started with polyamory and create-your-own polycule. This feels totally organic and normalized. Maybe let’s discuss after the kids go to bed?”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've done some research on how pre-roman societies viewed relationships and marriage. What I learned from ancient Egypt and certain Indigenous tribes were that the societal expectation was a long term pair bond or marriage, but it was acceptable on certain religious holidays or feast days to have no strings attached sex with others.
Outside of the celebration days, outside sex was considered cheating and socially unacceptable. Having emotional interactions with another outside of marriage was also forbidden.

It seemed like the healthiest way to do nonmonogamy to me. There's only one romantic connection being nurtured, both people are hooking up at the same time on the same date so nobody feels left out and alone, and you get to satisfy any desire to try out something new with clear boundaries put in place with the hookup partners. Maybe marriage with infrequent swinging is the way to go. Who knows?

A sexual purge day, I love this idea!