How to survive an unhappy marriage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^YES! I just don’t understand why not discuss with your spouse to open up marriage or divorce. I don’t understand why cheating is the only option.

Also, this idea of fluid monogamy, based on whenever you feel justified in stepping out of marriage, is also something I would want to understand in my partner before marriage. Hopefully these people would speak the truth when asked about their thoughts on monogamy but I don’t trust that they would speak the truth. I’ve never heard monogamy defined as conditional commitment. This would be a deal breaker for me and would want to know in advance.

I doubt that such a conversation would tell you much. It's just not in the parties' minds. I'm in a sexless marriage. My wife and I actually did discuss the importance of sex in a relationship before we were married. And we agreed on that point. I'm sure it never occurred to my wife that she would want to stay married while ending sex. Just as it never occurred to me whether such an unforeseen situation would "justify" infidelity.

So what do you recommend? I think the discussion around whether monogamy is conditional would bear fruit? Some people are committed and wouldn’t cheat vs. some who will justify their action to cheat. How do you gauge what is their character? How do you gauge the ones who won’t and will do the right thing (divorce, counseling etc.). There are many men around me who would do the right thing.

Denying your spouse is the wrong thing.

Not everyone is a "wear a hair shirt, suffer in silence and hope for reward in the afterlife" type.

Not everyone will present the other cheek after you slap them across the face. Some people slap back. That's not a character flaw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a serious question for all of you who would treat your spouses the way you say: you don’t seem to have respect at all for your spouse when I hear how you speak of them or how you would treat them in these types of situations. Why stay with them at all if you don’t have any respect? None of you like your spouses, would just let them know in 10 seconds you’re going to cheat, or don’t even tell your spouses you cheat. Why not divorce in order have some respect for your past love/respect for each other?

The refusing spouse stays because despite their willingness to deny their partner intimacy, they are getting something else out of it (another/the sole income, cooking, cleaning, involved parent for the children, social status, someone to take to company events, errand runner, handyman, mere physical presence). The refused spouse may similarly stay because despite the lack of closeness, they may be getting something else from the relationship.

What is
The refused spouse getting? All I hear on here is contempt of their spouse. Why stay?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed: she isn't a monster for not wanting sex with you. She IS a monster for not granting you a hall pass. And you are an outlier to accept such unreasonable terms. Report back in 6 months and I doubt you remain so passive over the status quo (ie, celibacy). The only sustainable/honest/satisfactory solution here is an open marriage: you meet your needs + she avoids unwanted sex + marriage survives. You are now just whistling in the dark and that cannot last.

I haven't asked for a hall pass, so that's on me.

Listen, I get that you're dead certain that most men don't accept this situation. I'm not going to argue with you because neither of us has any real data and we'd just be two blowhards talking out of our asses on the internet. I don't know how "most men" react.

It’s a pleasure to have such nuanced and thoughtful male voice on this forum. I hope it becomes a trend.

Look at data on happiness curve. Most things in life will go up and down as opposed to staying static. Your happiness will also go up and down depending on age/stage of life. There’s an interesting article in the Atlantic.

Let's see where our celibate male hero's marriage goes a year from now.

You’re on a roll. Just knock down anyone who might have any positive trait. You’re just a miserable person who wants everyone else to be at your level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^YES! I just don’t understand why not discuss with your spouse to open up marriage or divorce. I don’t understand why cheating is the only option.

Also, this idea of fluid monogamy, based on whenever you feel justified in stepping out of marriage, is also something I would want to understand in my partner before marriage. Hopefully these people would speak the truth when asked about their thoughts on monogamy but I don’t trust that they would speak the truth. I’ve never heard monogamy defined as conditional commitment. This would be a deal breaker for me and would want to know in advance.

I doubt that such a conversation would tell you much. It's just not in the parties' minds. I'm in a sexless marriage. My wife and I actually did discuss the importance of sex in a relationship before we were married. And we agreed on that point. I'm sure it never occurred to my wife that she would want to stay married while ending sex. Just as it never occurred to me whether such an unforeseen situation would "justify" infidelity.

So what do you recommend? I think the discussion around whether monogamy is conditional would bear fruit? Some people are committed and wouldn’t cheat vs. some who will justify their action to cheat. How do you gauge what is their character? How do you gauge the ones who won’t and will do the right thing (divorce, counseling etc.). There are many men around me who would do the right thing.

Denying your spouse is the wrong thing.

Not everyone is a "wear a hair shirt, suffer in silence and hope for reward in the afterlife" type.

Not everyone will present the other cheek after you slap them across the face. Some people slap back. That's not a character flaw.

I'm not trying to come off as a saint or any type of study in Christian charity. And I haven't said anything bad about anyone who has advocated declaring the marriage open or even having a discreet affair. My entire point is that everyone, on both sides, is so positive that they know what is factually true and ethically right in these situations. And I'm not sure at all.

This is an anonymous board, so I don't expect people to know about post histories, but I've been honest that a very big reason that neither infidelity nor declaring the marriage open seems like much of a solution for me, is because this has done a number on my self-esteem and I'd be terrified to try.

What I do believe, and what you can disagree with or decide is inapplicable to your situation, is that my wife didn't develop an aversion to sex with me to punish me. That doesn't give her a complete pass. She knows that's what it feels like to me and she knows that I wish she were more proactive about that. But I also know that she has, at times, felt like she was drowning as she tried to juggle a high-stress job and young children and the loss of a parent. And that I haven't always been able to provide her with what she needs to deal with that. It took me a long time to learn that taking all the blame for that and self-flagellating was no more productive than casting her as a villain in my mind. So I'm trying to work on myself while still learning to be generous with myself and to set limits on what I'll take the blame for.

My drought has not been a particularly short one (I'm not counting in weeks or even months), but you're right that the picture may be very different in one year. I don't intend to stay celibate forever, and if it looks like that can't be resolved within my marriage then hopefully I'll be in a headspace to trust myself to end the marriage. But even if the situation becomes untenable, I hope I'm still able to be charitable to my wife. Because I know this isn't what she wants either.

In any case, if I felt that I was being dealt an intentional "slap" and needed to slap back, I would think that I would be in divorce territory and not open marriage territory. If my motivation were to hurt my wife in retaliation for hurting me, I think I'd be beyond seeking away to preserve the marriage.

[Anonymous]

^ so this is the point. Why not be respectful to your wife during this process and also that you should let your wife know where you head is regarding divorce (or at least the seriousness of this to you) instead of cheating.

As I indicated that sex life can vary and did for me based on the amount of stress in my life (seems like the situation for your wife as well). It did change when daily stress levels decreased as well. Even though you may think that you have communicated to your wife about your needs, she may not be in a space to hear it with all of the daily stress in life. It might be good to discuss with her in a way she "hears" you (only you know how that would work). Hopefully you're in the mindset to compromise as well and come to a solution.

There's a better path to come together on this. There are benefits. Solution is possible since your wife sounds like a good lady and you sound like a reasonable husband. It's worth it.

Hopefully, you're staying in the marriage just because of your confidence but rather that you find value in it. Your situation really sounds hopeful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a serious question for all of you who would treat your spouses the way you say: you don’t seem to have respect at all for your spouse when I hear how you speak of them or how you would treat them in these types of situations. Why stay with them at all if you don’t have any respect? None of you like your spouses, would just let them know in 10 seconds you’re going to cheat, or don’t even tell your spouses you cheat. Why not divorce in order have some respect for your past love/respect for each other?

The refusing spouse stays because despite their willingness to deny their partner intimacy, they are getting something else out of it (another/the sole income, cooking, cleaning, involved parent for the children, social status, someone to take to company events, errand runner, handyman, mere physical presence). The refused spouse may similarly stay because despite the lack of closeness, they may be getting something else from the relationship.

What is
The refused spouse getting? All I hear on here is contempt of their spouse. Why stay?

I imagine it varies some from person to person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^YES! I just don’t understand why not discuss with your spouse to open up marriage or divorce. I don’t understand why cheating is the only option.

Also, this idea of fluid monogamy, based on whenever you feel justified in stepping out of marriage, is also something I would want to understand in my partner before marriage. Hopefully these people would speak the truth when asked about their thoughts on monogamy but I don’t trust that they would speak the truth. I’ve never heard monogamy defined as conditional commitment. This would be a deal breaker for me and would want to know in advance.

I doubt that such a conversation would tell you much. It's just not in the parties' minds. I'm in a sexless marriage. My wife and I actually did discuss the importance of sex in a relationship before we were married. And we agreed on that point. I'm sure it never occurred to my wife that she would want to stay married while ending sex. Just as it never occurred to me whether such an unforeseen situation would "justify" infidelity.

So what do you recommend? I think the discussion around whether monogamy is conditional would bear fruit? Some people are committed and wouldn’t cheat vs. some who will justify their action to cheat. How do you gauge what is their character? How do you gauge the ones who won’t and will do the right thing (divorce, counseling etc.). There are many men around me who would do the right thing.

Denying your spouse is the wrong thing.

Not everyone is a "wear a hair shirt, suffer in silence and hope for reward in the afterlife" type.

Not everyone will present the other cheek after you slap them across the face. Some people slap back. That's not a character flaw.

I'm not trying to come off as a saint or any type of study in Christian charity. And I haven't said anything bad about anyone who has advocated declaring the marriage open or even having a discreet affair. My entire point is that everyone, on both sides, is so positive that they know what is factually true and ethically right in these situations. And I'm not sure at all.

This is an anonymous board, so I don't expect people to know about post histories, but I've been honest that a very big reason that neither infidelity nor declaring the marriage open seems like much of a solution for me, is because this has done a number on my self-esteem and I'd be terrified to try.

What I do believe, and what you can disagree with or decide is inapplicable to your situation, is that my wife didn't develop an aversion to sex with me to punish me. That doesn't give her a complete pass. She knows that's what it feels like to me and she knows that I wish she were more proactive about that. But I also know that she has, at times, felt like she was drowning as she tried to juggle a high-stress job and young children and the loss of a parent. And that I haven't always been able to provide her with what she needs to deal with that. It took me a long time to learn that taking all the blame for that and self-flagellating was no more productive than casting her as a villain in my mind. So I'm trying to work on myself while still learning to be generous with myself and to set limits on what I'll take the blame for.

My drought has not been a particularly short one (I'm not counting in weeks or even months), but you're right that the picture may be very different in one year. I don't intend to stay celibate forever, and if it looks like that can't be resolved within my marriage then hopefully I'll be in a headspace to trust myself to end the marriage. But even if the situation becomes untenable, I hope I'm still able to be charitable to my wife. Because I know this isn't what she wants either.

In any case, if I felt that I was being dealt an intentional "slap" and needed to slap back, I would think that I would be in divorce territory and not open marriage territory. If my motivation were to hurt my wife in retaliation for hurting me, I think I'd be beyond seeking away to preserve the marriage.

I wish you luck.

Perhaps one day soon you will find a way, together, to resolve the situation. Therapy seems like a good idea.

It seems to me that if both of you are truly upset about it, couples therapy would be a no brainer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow tough crowd here. I'm sorry for my wording, I'm no misogynist and my religion isn't the only reason I won't entertain divorce. Thank you to the 2-3 posters with serious/helpful replies. I have expressed my unhappiness to my wife several times, hence asking her to go to couples counseling with me. I haven't threatened her with divorce because I think she'd know it's a veiled threat. I guess I can try to offer ultimatums, but it seems nonsensical to make threats that I don't intend to follow through with if my expectations aren't met.

Don’t give her ultimatums you’re not going to follow through on, that will just make everything worse, however you don’t have suffer in silence.

You don’t have to talk about divorce, but there are plenty of ways to shake her out of complacency.

1) First, tell her you’re going to talk to your pastor with or without her. That’s an ultimatum you can follow through on.

2) Tell her you’re no longer willing to keep up the facade that everything is okay. She can go to counseling with you now or choose not to, but you’re not going to pretend that things are okay when they’re not.

3) You have a huge support network through family and church! Start using it. I don’t mean air your dirty laundry, but it’s fine to tell close friends and family that you’re struggling. It’s okay to say your marriage is in bad shape and you’re depressed you can’t convince your wife to try to fix it. You can ask for prayers.

Note, that I never suggest you threaten to leave your wife or have an affair. However I have a feeling that reaching out to your community for support and advice is going to make your wife deeply upset and uncomfortable. This could be the kick in the pants she needs to get her out of her comfort zone and motivate her to make changes. At a minimum you stop suffering in silence.

[Anonymous]

Good advice

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Divorce is off the table due to 2 elementary-aged children and our social life as a couple is deeply intertwined with our extended families and church community. We've been married for 15 years and our sex life has been non-existent (maybe 4-5x a year at most) for the last 5 years. We hardly touch and I sleep in the guest room. My wife is superficially friendly towards me but detached emotionally. She was't exactly warm or emotionally open to begin with, just 'pleasant.' This should've been a warning sign in the beginning but I was just happy to find an attractive, 'uncomplicated' woman. She didn't come into the relationship with any emotional baggage or glaring psychological issues so I thought I hit the jackpot.

I've tried everything I can possibly think of to re-ignite the spark of passion, including earning a six figure income, losing weight, taking her out for date-nights and showering her with gifts and flowers. I asked her to go to couples therapy with me or to speak with our pastor together but she says our personal life is no one else's business. I don't think she actually believes there's anything wrong with our marriage. I have sought out individual counseling but all I got out of it is that in order to transform my marriage, my wife has to believe there's a reason has to change it. She's comfortable with the way things are but I'm miserable.

I'm ashamed to admit I've entertained the idea of having an affair but 1.) it goes against all of my moral principles 2.) I won't risk ruining my children's lives and 3.) I would rather have sex with my wife but she's not interested. I spend a lot of time in the gym and at work but it isn't enough to distract me from the loneliness and lack of basic, human connection.

We have open access to each other's phones, e-mails, etc. so I know she isn't having an affair. She's a stay-at-home mom and is fulfilled enough with her friendships and volunteer work. She's a good woman and a loving mother but is completely uninterested in being a good wife. I don't know what else to do except pray that she feels the need to reconnect with me one day.

You're miserable, she's fine.

You're lonely, she thinks everything is just peachy.

She knows you won't leave, so she's happy to carry on being happy while you are miserable.

You have accepted the situation.

[Anonymous]

^clearly, you have actually given up and that’s why you write a post that encourages giving up. That is actually a loser’s post.

[Anonymous]

^^ the PP who gets less sex in a year than I do in average week, yet his strategy is to "pray that she feels the need to reconnect with me one day" ... now THERE is a true loser post

[Anonymous]

OP, I could have written this myself. In a similar situation, although my desire for her sexually is pretty low, so I do not feel like our lack of sex is solely or even mostly her fault. My DW works a high stress job and manages the kids lives mostly, while I am more of an “employee” in the relationship of sorts in that area. I also work a lot but less aggressive and largely take care of everything else, but I’m not a A type and not a task master or detail freak, so my contributions are never good enough.

I struggled for 5 years in this state of minimal sex/ physical contact intimacy to the point where I replaced that intimacy w/ porn. Last year I finally caved and shamelessly did cheat by getting 2 erotic massages (happy ending). I stopped due to guilt and once I did more research on the industry and the potential for human trafficking. No desire for an emotional affair b/c I would rather keep that energy for my wife, who is a good friend and person overall.

I agree w/ many on here that divorce is probably the best route if you and your spouse don’t aggressively pursue counseling. We tried counseling and have stopped b/c things haven’t changed too much. And I don’t think we want to. DW recently admitted that she only around for the kids so I’m right on the door step of filing papers soon, something I would have never imagined a few years ago. I’m scared b/c divorce would be devastating for me (for typical reasons why men feel it worse) and the kids. But I agree w/ others on here that it’s better than being dishonest and living in what amounts to a prison marriage.

My 30 cents. My thoughts are with you and Good luck OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I could have written this myself. In a similar situation, although my desire for her sexually is pretty low, so I do not feel like our lack of sex is solely or even mostly her fault. My DW works a high stress job and manages the kids lives mostly, while I am more of an “employee” in the relationship of sorts in that area. I also work a lot but less aggressive and largely take care of everything else, but I’m not a A type and not a task master or detail freak, so my contributions are never good enough.

I struggled for 5 years in this state of minimal sex/ physical contact intimacy to the point where I replaced that intimacy w/ porn. Last year I finally caved and shamelessly did cheat by getting 2 erotic massages (happy ending). I stopped due to guilt and once I did more research on the industry and the potential for human trafficking. No desire for an emotional affair b/c I would rather keep that energy for my wife, who is a good friend and person overall.

I agree w/ many on here that divorce is probably the best route if you and your spouse don’t aggressively pursue counseling. We tried counseling and have stopped b/c things haven’t changed too much. And I don’t think we want to. DW recently admitted that she only around for the kids so I’m right on the door step of filing papers soon, something I would have never imagined a few years ago. I’m scared b/c divorce would be devastating for me (for typical reasons why men feel it worse) and the kids. But I agree w/ others on here that it’s better than being dishonest and living in what amounts to a prison marriage.

My 30 cents. My thoughts are with you and Good luck OP.

I am interested in your perspective on the bolded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I could have written this myself. In a similar situation, although my desire for her sexually is pretty low, so I do not feel like our lack of sex is solely or even mostly her fault. My DW works a high stress job and manages the kids lives mostly, while I am more of an “employee” in the relationship of sorts in that area. I also work a lot but less aggressive and largely take care of everything else, but I’m not a A type and not a task master or detail freak, so my contributions are never good enough.

I struggled for 5 years in this state of minimal sex/ physical contact intimacy to the point where I replaced that intimacy w/ porn. Last year I finally caved and shamelessly did cheat by getting 2 erotic massages (happy ending). I stopped due to guilt and once I did more research on the industry and the potential for human trafficking. No desire for an emotional affair b/c I would rather keep that energy for my wife, who is a good friend and person overall.

I agree w/ many on here that divorce is probably the best route if you and your spouse don’t aggressively pursue counseling. We tried counseling and have stopped b/c things haven’t changed too much. And I don’t think we want to. DW recently admitted that she only around for the kids so I’m right on the door step of filing papers soon, something I would have never imagined a few years ago. I’m scared b/c divorce would be devastating for me (for typical reasons why men feel it worse) and the kids. But I agree w/ others on here that it’s better than being dishonest and living in what amounts to a prison marriage.

My 30 cents. My thoughts are with you and Good luck OP.

I am interested in your perspective on the bolded.

Nothing else he’s said is remotely typical for a male, so I’m not optimistic that any men will agree with his bolded perspective either.