The very definition of "standardized" means same test/same testing conditions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want employees who can do the job in the alotted time. I want to know who cant before I hire them.

Since SAT's aren't used in hiring, that's not really relevant.

Actually some companies have asked for these scores - with grade inflation etc they want to know but now either the abuse and accommodations, it will fall back to who you know.

This isn’t, you know, actually true

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The 145 kid is actually a 130 kid. Mom reported her GAI. Her full scale IQ is around 130. It’s pulled down by Psi. The 115 kid is “really bright”, at least in my scenario. His PSI pulls down his FSIQ as well.

I have the 145 GAI IQ kid. FSIQ 132. WM was also low, but much higher than PS. . This was ADHD diagnostic testing. I suspect the FS IQ is high on proper medication. She will retest next year, on medication, when we reevaluate to see if she will request college accommodations. I hope not, but she may if she goes the route of large, high level math classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Whenever you do anything, there is a line where someone just got something and the next person gets nothing. The difference between the two on the line is miniscule. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are cases (even agreed to on this board) where everyone agrees that that student should get support (extra time, reader, scribe, access to bathroom- whatever). The problem always seems to be where that line is (and if "my" child is included).

When I say everyone, I don't count the obvious contrarians that show up on most threads.

Yes. You are right. But this is one of those clear examples that make you scratch your head.

Kid A: 130 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI
Kid B: 115 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI

Who deserves extra time? The smarter kid?

115 is at the top of average and 100 is in the middle of average - so I would think that extra time would not help Kid B as much. Using the discrepancy model, a student that has a 1 1/2 standard deviation difference between the two would be diagnosed with a learning disability. In this model, kid 1 would qualify and kid 2 would not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid has a slow processing speed they deserve a lower score. This charade will end soon. Affluent parents gaming the system so their kid can bump their 1400 to a 1500 is going to end. They have to have a non-timed test, call it something else and offer it as an addition to the traditional ACT or SAT. Call it the NTSAT (non-timed SAT) offer to anyone with a 504 or to any kid who doesn't want to take the SAT with time constraints. Let the colleges then decide then. But the colleges should KNOW who is getting more time on these tests and this seems like the only fair way. NO MORE EXTRA TIME ON SAT OR ACT FOR ANYONE

Well, I have 15 year-old complaint that needs to be addressed. When I took the LSAT, it was on a hot and humid day on the college park campus. The building was under renovation and was demoed down to the concrete walls and floor; the cooling system was out and the windows were open -- which let in unmitigated the sounds of nearby construction. How many in my testing cohort suffered under the same testing conditions as I? Dare I say few; few indeed. I demand a retest!

I used to teach LSAT prep. You could have called and reported poor testing conditions. They would have investigated and might have offered a retest.

If you griped instead of doing something, that’s on you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 145 kid is actually a 130 kid. Mom reported her GAI. Her full scale IQ is around 130. It’s pulled down by Psi. The 115 kid is “really bright”, at least in my scenario. His PSI pulls down his FSIQ as well.

I have the 145 GAI IQ kid. FSIQ 132. WM was also low, but much higher than PS. . This was ADHD diagnostic testing. I suspect the FS IQ is high on proper medication. She will retest next year, on medication, when we reevaluate to see if she will request college accommodations. I hope not, but she may if she goes the route of large, high level math classes.

I have a 10yo with this WISC profile but no ADHD diagnosis. She’s also a highly gifted reader and great with abstract reasoning. I’m curious how you feel about your DD choosing a major that doesn’t play into her strengths. Or does it? My DD is such a natural reader and loves conceptual math—but yeah, she’s slower than her IQ would predict and this shows most in math. But she is really good at math. I’m just curious if you thought about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid has a slow processing speed they deserve a lower score. This charade will end soon. Affluent parents gaming the system so their kid can bump their 1400 to a 1500 is going to end. They have to have a non-timed test, call it something else and offer it as an addition to the traditional ACT or SAT. Call it the NTSAT (non-timed SAT) offer to anyone with a 504 or to any kid who doesn't want to take the SAT with time constraints. Let the colleges then decide then. But the colleges should KNOW who is getting more time on these tests and this seems like the only fair way. NO MORE EXTRA TIME ON SAT OR ACT FOR ANYONE

Hey OP, did your snowflake go to SAT prep classes? If so you have no standing to complain about gaming the system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want employees who can do the job in the alotted time. I want to know who cant before I hire them.

Since SAT's aren't used in hiring, that's not really relevant.

Actually some companies have asked for these scores - with grade inflation etc they want to know but now either the abuse and accommodations, it will fall back to who you know.

This isn’t, you know, actually true

I don't know about SAT scores, but consulting companies do ( at least did) ask for GMAT scores and GPAs before selecting people to consider for interviews for summer internships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid has a slow processing speed they deserve a lower score. This charade will end soon. Affluent parents gaming the system so their kid can bump their 1400 to a 1500 is going to end. They have to have a non-timed test, call it something else and offer it as an addition to the traditional ACT or SAT. Call it the NTSAT (non-timed SAT) offer to anyone with a 504 or to any kid who doesn't want to take the SAT with time constraints. Let the colleges then decide then. But the colleges should KNOW who is getting more time on these tests and this seems like the only fair way. NO MORE EXTRA TIME ON SAT OR ACT FOR ANYONE

Hey OP, did your snowflake go to SAT prep classes? If so you have no standing to complain about gaming the system.

Different pp, but my DC did not take any SAT prep classes, but did receive several accommodations on the SAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering where is this place that a child with a disability has the field tilted for them. They have an uphill slog regardless of extra time or not. The extra time makes the hill a little bit less steep.

I agree.

My kid's disability played role in what his teachers write in recommendations. It played a role in what extracurriculars he could manage. It played a role in what courses he could handle. It played a role in the grades he got. Many college doors will be closed for him because of those things. His ACT score, taken with double time over multiple days, was a chance for him to show that yes, under ideal circumstances he is capable of grade level work. But it's not like it somehow undid all the other ways that his disability impacts him. He's not stealing anyone's spot because of an unfair score. He's using it to add one more thing to the picture. And since he'll use the same kinds of accommodations in college that he had on the test, such as spreading his coursework over 5 years and summers to allow him extra time for assignments, his ACT is an accurate predictor for how he'll do.

And how's this going to play when he gets a job?

Exactly. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty once they hit the real world.

I'm the poster that you're replying too. I'm not really sure what people expect when they post this. Yes, my kid's disabilities will undoubtedly limit the jobs he's able to do. There will absolutely need to be problem solving, and there will be doors that will be closed. That's the reality of having a disability.

But if he didn't get extended time on the ACT, that would be true too. Extended time allows him access to college, a place that is designed to help kids develop skills they'll need in college. I believed, based on his experiences in high school and what he showed me he could do, that he would benefit from college and would be able to be successful in the right place, with the right supports, and freshman year has reinforced that view. My hope is that, after graduation, he'll be more likely to be successful than he would have been without the college experience, but that doesn't mean that college will fix something.

People often suggest that giving kids supports or accommodations is what creates adults who need accommodations, but my kid would be an adult who needs accommodations either way. Not accommodating him in high school wouldn't have mean he didn't need them. It would just mean that he would get to adulthood with fewer skills, and with less understanding of what he needs, and less ability to take on the task of getting those supports.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Whenever you do anything, there is a line where someone just got something and the next person gets nothing. The difference between the two on the line is miniscule. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are cases (even agreed to on this board) where everyone agrees that that student should get support (extra time, reader, scribe, access to bathroom- whatever). The problem always seems to be where that line is (and if "my" child is included).

When I say everyone, I don't count the obvious contrarians that show up on most threads.

Yes. You are right. But this is one of those clear examples that make you scratch your head.

Kid A: 130 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI
Kid B: 115 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI

Who deserves extra time? The smarter kid?

115 is at the top of average and 100 is in the middle of average - so I would think that extra time would not help Kid B as much. Using the discrepancy model, a student that has a 1 1/2 standard deviation difference between the two would be diagnosed with a learning disability. In this model, kid 1 would qualify and kid 2 would not.

Except that if Kid A is the one above, his processing score 1st percentile, or around 55.

Generally, a kid with a 55 in anything, is going to need some sort of accommodations. For example, a kid whose vision is in the bottom 1% would be visually impaired and would take the test with enlarged print, a reader (human or tech), or in braille. A kid whose motor skills are in the 1st percentile would need a scribe, and possibly a wheelchair ramp or elevator to access the building.

On the other hand, a kid with a 100 PSI score is performing at an average level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Whenever you do anything, there is a line where someone just got something and the next person gets nothing. The difference between the two on the line is miniscule. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are cases (even agreed to on this board) where everyone agrees that that student should get support (extra time, reader, scribe, access to bathroom- whatever). The problem always seems to be where that line is (and if "my" child is included).

When I say everyone, I don't count the obvious contrarians that show up on most threads.

Yes. You are right. But this is one of those clear examples that make you scratch your head.

Kid A: 130 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI
Kid B: 115 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI

Who deserves extra time? The smarter kid?

115 is at the top of average and 100 is in the middle of average - so I would think that extra time would not help Kid B as much. Using the discrepancy model, a student that has a 1 1/2 standard deviation difference between the two would be diagnosed with a learning disability. In this model, kid 1 would qualify and kid 2 would not.

Except that if Kid A is the one above, his processing score 1st percentile, or around 55.

Generally, a kid with a 55 in anything, is going to need some sort of accommodations. For example, a kid whose vision is in the bottom 1% would be visually impaired and would take the test with enlarged print, a reader (human or tech), or in braille. A kid whose motor skills are in the 1st percentile would need a scribe, and possibly a wheelchair ramp or elevator to access the building.

On the other hand, a kid with a 100 PSI score is performing at an average level.

It’s the 145 GAI / 100 PS kid. And to be clear, not all processing speed was 1%. It was one subtest on a different (non-IQ) processing speed test as part of a neuropsychologist battery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Truth is, more time on a (proctored, closed book) standardized test doesn’t make you smarter or enable you to know more. It just gives people a chance to show what they already know/can do.

The ACT is a tightly timed test. It’s not hard content, but it requires the student to answer quickly and move on, and many students simply can’t finish each section. You’ll notice that everyone who gets accomodations takes the ACT and not the SAT, and gets a significantly higher score than they did without extra time. The SAT allows for a slower pace, so the score increase is never as dramatic. Anyone could get a dramatically higher score with extra time on the ACT.

[Anonymous]

Huh. Everyone I knew whose kids had accommodations took the SAT. And never took the test w/o accommodations, so couldn’t compare scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The 145 kid is actually a 130 kid. Mom reported her GAI. Her full scale IQ is around 130. It’s pulled down by Psi. The 115 kid is “really bright”, at least in my scenario. His PSI pulls down his FSIQ as well.

I have the 145 GAI IQ kid. FSIQ 132. WM was also low, but much higher than PS. . This was ADHD diagnostic testing. I suspect the FS IQ is high on proper medication. She will retest next year, on medication, when we reevaluate to see if she will request college accommodations. I hope not, but she may if she goes the route of large, high level math classes.

I have a 10yo with this WISC profile but no ADHD diagnosis. She’s also a highly gifted reader and great with abstract reasoning. I’m curious how you feel about your DD choosing a major that doesn’t play into her strengths. Or does it? My DD is such a natural reader and loves conceptual math—but yeah, she’s slower than her IQ would predict and this shows most in math. But she is really good at math. I’m just curious if you thought about it.

My freshman took the wisc in 3rd grade for private school entry. He was given a GAI of 151 and a FSIQ of 144. I don’t recall his individual scores, but his processing speed was much lower than the others. He’s a great conceptual thinker, and seems to be very bright, but he’s a total lazy ass and he works slow. He’s at a public high school now and making Bs in all honors classes. Accomodations for extra time would probably help him a lot, but it would also embarrass him, so we won’t pursue it. There is zero anonymity for accommodations in high school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Huh. Everyone I knew whose kids had accommodations took the SAT. And never took the test w/o accommodations, so couldn’t compare scores.

Everyone I know had their kids diagnosed after scoring poorly the first time. I have a senior in FCPS and she knows at least 5 kids who did this within the past year and a half. These are all kids who had weighted GPAs over 4.0 before testing. This is a huge problem.