The very definition of "standardized" means same test/same testing conditions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like I want to know how many kids you have at home that may cause issues when I'm hiring you, I want to know what kind of special accommodations you need to work for me.

A standing desk and a special chair? Done. Want to balance on a ball? Take two! If I give you a project that takes 3 others on your team 10 days to complete and you tell me you need 20... eh, not so much. Why would I hire someone who needs double the amount of time to complete one task? For the same salary I can find one who can do it in 10 days like the others.

I predict more self employment and entrepreneurship in the future, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. No way these ADHD kids to adults are going to make it in a normal 9-5 setting with strict deadlines.

I bet disclosing their special accommodations would dissuade parents from having their kids tank the screening tests to get the diagnosis. If I require you to send me you college transcript and I saw that you made a 4.0 at Yale but needed twice the time of the 3.5 kid from JMU, I'm passing on you.

Holy cow! You do realize you can’t ask someone how many children they have at home for that exact reason, right? It’s Illegal and none of your business. They may have “accommodations “ (aka childcare or a stay at home spouse) to address their child handicap. (Eyeroll). Do you ask that of men, too, or just women? This tells me all I need to know about you.

There are so many questions to ask to get around NOT asking directly. The easy one that every woman falls for is "what do you like to do in your free time?" They always answer with something kid related. Some men fall for it but not as many. But yes, I ask both men and women the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Although my kid gets extra time, I agree with you. I don't think these tests should be timed. I think the kids should have the chance to perform to their best ability, and time not be a factor. Jobs that require a faster processing speed should devise some way to test for that in their interviewing process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read the Spenceley and Wheeler study on the use of extended time by college students with disabilities:” our results provide evidence that students with disability may be able to access test content in less time than they are provided. Given the threats to validity of scores on tests taken with accommodations, more research is needed to fully understand how extended time influences performance on classroom tests administered to students with and without disabilities both with and without this accommodations. Until then, we recommend that disability services providers continue to work to balance all students right to access academic content without providing unnecessary accommodations that may produce an unfair advantage”

I had no idea so many college students qualified. Also think of all the kids whose parents are without resources or support to diagnose an LD that are overlooked.

The Use of Extended Time by College Students with Disabilities
Spenceley, Laura M.; Wheeler, Starr
Journal of Postsecondary Education and Disability, v29 n2 p141-150 Sum 2016
College students with disabilities represent approximately 11% of the general college population (U.S. Department of Education, 2013). These students are entitled to a variety of academic accommodations, including extended time to complete tests. Although extended time is frequently requested and granted, little empirical attention has been given to its use for exams taken by students with disabilities in a college classroom sample. The current study sampled records that were collected on all exams completed with extended time during two semesters at a midsize public university in the Northeast. The study explored two broad questions: What portion of typical time and extended time do students with disabilities use to complete exams? How does that use of time vary across common disabilities? Our findings indicated that more than half of the tests administered with extended time were completed within the time given to students in the sample classroom who took the tests. We also found, unexpectedly, that 12.9% of exams were completed in more than the extended time allotted. In this paper we discuss issues disability services providers could consider when making decisions about the provision of extended time and make recommendations for future research

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering where is this place that a child with a disability has the field tilted for them. They have an uphill slog regardless of extra time or not. The extra time makes the hill a little bit less steep.

I agree.

My kid's disability played role in what his teachers write in recommendations. It played a role in what extracurriculars he could manage. It played a role in what courses he could handle. It played a role in the grades he got. Many college doors will be closed for him because of those things. His ACT score, taken with double time over multiple days, was a chance for him to show that yes, under ideal circumstances he is capable of grade level work. But it's not like it somehow undid all the other ways that his disability impacts him. He's not stealing anyone's spot because of an unfair score. He's using it to add one more thing to the picture. And since he'll use the same kinds of accommodations in college that he had on the test, such as spreading his coursework over 5 years and summers to allow him extra time for assignments, his ACT is an accurate predictor for how he'll do.

And how's this going to play when he gets a job?

Exactly. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty once they hit the real world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Whenever you do anything, there is a line where someone just got something and the next person gets nothing. The difference between the two on the line is miniscule. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are cases (even agreed to on this board) where everyone agrees that that student should get support (extra time, reader, scribe, access to bathroom- whatever). The problem always seems to be where that line is (and if "my" child is included).

When I say everyone, I don't count the obvious contrarians that show up on most threads.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

Whenever you do anything, there is a line where someone just got something and the next person gets nothing. The difference between the two on the line is miniscule. However, the line has to be drawn somewhere. There are cases (even agreed to on this board) where everyone agrees that that student should get support (extra time, reader, scribe, access to bathroom- whatever). The problem always seems to be where that line is (and if "my" child is included).

When I say everyone, I don't count the obvious contrarians that show up on most threads.

Yes. You are right. But this is one of those clear examples that make you scratch your head.

Kid A: 130 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI
Kid B: 115 Full scale IQ with 100 PSI

Who deserves extra time? The smarter kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just like I want to know how many kids you have at home that may cause issues when I'm hiring you, I want to know what kind of special accommodations you need to work for me.

A standing desk and a special chair? Done. Want to balance on a ball? Take two! If I give you a project that takes 3 others on your team 10 days to complete and you tell me you need 20... eh, not so much. Why would I hire someone who needs double the amount of time to complete one task? For the same salary I can find one who can do it in 10 days like the others.

I predict more self employment and entrepreneurship in the future, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. No way these ADHD kids to adults are going to make it in a normal 9-5 setting with strict deadlines.

I bet disclosing their special accommodations would dissuade parents from having their kids tank the screening tests to get the diagnosis. If I require you to send me you college transcript and I saw that you made a 4.0 at Yale but needed twice the time of the 3.5 kid from JMU, I'm passing on you.

Holy cow! You do realize you can’t ask someone how many children they have at home for that exact reason, right? It’s Illegal and none of your business. They may have “accommodations “ (aka childcare or a stay at home spouse) to address their child handicap. (Eyeroll). Do you ask that of men, too, or just women? This tells me all I need to know about you.

There are so many questions to ask to get around NOT asking directly. The easy one that every woman falls for is "what do you like to do in your free time?" They always answer with something kid related. Some men fall for it but not as many. But yes, I ask both men and women the same thing.

So you are admitting that you illegally discriminate. You are an awesome person. Seriously, there is something wrong with you. Women like you keep others down. How do you know someone with kids can't balance their workload? How do you know someone who runs marathons for fun isn't going to prioritize that over work? Maybe they don't have time for hobbies because they work so hard AND manage their kids. Maybe they have good child care or resident grandparents to help, so they don't have to worry about child care. It's none of your business, and that's why the law doesn't allow you to ask. Your hinting around isn't legal either. It's their responsibilty to balance work and life. As long as you are transparent with the hours the job requires/you expect, there shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps your expectations are unreasonable.

[Anonymous]

The kid with the 115 IQ is not “really bright” — s/he is slightly above average. So average processing speed doesn’t function as much of a bottleneck wrt this kid’s performance. By contrast, an exceptionally bright kid with average processing speed isn’t going to be able to show what s/he can do on a test with significant time pressure. Hence the accommodation based on the differential. This makes sense in a context where speed isn't supposed to be what’s being tested.

I’m one of the “give everybody enough time” posters, so if I ran the zoo, 115 IQ kid could have additional time too. But it’s pretty clear that, in the absence of any accommodations, 145 IQ kid’s score is much less likely to reflect his/her ability than 115 IQ kid’s score.

[Anonymous]

Simple solution for College Board and ACT organization. among the test takers, find out the maximum time one needs and give every test taker that same amount of time. Every test taker will have the option to use the maximum allotted time for a given section or complete the section before that time. This way nobody is handicapped because of their specific condition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering where is this place that a child with a disability has the field tilted for them. They have an uphill slog regardless of extra time or not. The extra time makes the hill a little bit less steep.

I agree.

My kid's disability played role in what his teachers write in recommendations. It played a role in what extracurriculars he could manage. It played a role in what courses he could handle. It played a role in the grades he got. Many college doors will be closed for him because of those things. His ACT score, taken with double time over multiple days, was a chance for him to show that yes, under ideal circumstances he is capable of grade level work. But it's not like it somehow undid all the other ways that his disability impacts him. He's not stealing anyone's spot because of an unfair score. He's using it to add one more thing to the picture. And since he'll use the same kinds of accommodations in college that he had on the test, such as spreading his coursework over 5 years and summers to allow him extra time for assignments, his ACT is an accurate predictor for how he'll do.

And how's this going to play when he gets a job?

Exactly. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty once they hit the real world.

Unless they have figured out their strengths and weaknesses and can find a job accordingly. I never take timed tests at work.

[Anonymous]

The 145 kid is actually a 130 kid. Mom reported her GAI. Her full scale IQ is around 130. It’s pulled down by Psi. The 115 kid is “really bright”, at least in my scenario. His PSI pulls down his FSIQ as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am wondering where is this place that a child with a disability has the field tilted for them. They have an uphill slog regardless of extra time or not. The extra time makes the hill a little bit less steep.

I agree.

My kid's disability played role in what his teachers write in recommendations. It played a role in what extracurriculars he could manage. It played a role in what courses he could handle. It played a role in the grades he got. Many college doors will be closed for him because of those things. His ACT score, taken with double time over multiple days, was a chance for him to show that yes, under ideal circumstances he is capable of grade level work. But it's not like it somehow undid all the other ways that his disability impacts him. He's not stealing anyone's spot because of an unfair score. He's using it to add one more thing to the picture. And since he'll use the same kinds of accommodations in college that he had on the test, such as spreading his coursework over 5 years and summers to allow him extra time for assignments, his ACT is an accurate predictor for how he'll do.

And how's this going to play when he gets a job?

Exactly. I've seen this happen and it's not pretty once they hit the real world.

Even if we could trust your ability to analyze why a host of different people do not succeed in a variety of different jobs, your assessment would be skewed by the fact that you see the SN failures, but the SN successes are invisible to you (or examples of people who must have games the system).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOL, you people are so angry...it is comical. So glad my ADHD kid got his deserved extra time that he needed and scored well on the ACT and got into his first choice top 20 school. As for what is done to curb the abuse, I doubt it will change much. Maybe be more careful about who gets accommodations. If you have a kid who struggled since elementary school, it is doubtful that kid is "gaming the system." I believe it is more suspect when kids suddenly in late middle school or in high school decide to get evaluated. Maybe just have more stringent requirements for evaluation for them.

But you will NEVER see the accommodations go away. Sorry, but you won't win this one...nice try though.

when Chinese take over there will be no accommodations whatsoever.

They don't care because they all cheat anyway

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

My TJ kid has a GAI IQ of more than 145. PS 100. That’s three full SDs. It has taken so much effort for them to perform at a school like TJ with such a variation in subtests. Does not get extra time to turn in assignments (which would be pointless, because the workload is so high they would just be digging themselves in a hole). Uses extended time at school for tests in advanced math, Chem and physics only. Does not seem to need it for reading based activities and assessments. Has the accommodation for both sections on the SAT, because it really isn’t an option to only get it for math. But finished the verbal with a lot of time to spare.

You DD is obviously very bright and motivated. While her GAI is above 145 her actual full scale IQ is above 130. She is intellectually gifted by all accounts.

Her processing speed is perfectly average. The deviation between her high scores and low scores is indicative of a possible LD but it’s not an LD by itself. How can being average at something be an LD by itself? It’s not. You allude to her being diagnosed with ADHD.

As a parent you are always going to want to see your child in the best possible way. You choose to look at the score which includes her strengths. You concede processing speed is important enough to warrant an LD and extra time, but you don’t include it in her IQ score or SAT score.

She does not need extra time on reading? Why? Because this is a strength for her. She is an extremely gifted reader. She needs extra time with math because this is a weakness for her. But extra time washes that distinction away. Why? She didn’t need it for one area. Why does she get it for the other?

You are essentially saying “my daughter is smart except for processing speed. So don’t take that into account for her.”

For other kids with average processing speed, yes. Make them rush through the test. Not her though.

Also, kids with high processing speed but relatively low IQ get punished.

DD is strongly ADHD. And the deviation between OS and GAI causes the problems. Also, one of her processing scores is 1%. It’s hard to explain, but her psychiatrist says it’s like putting one foot on the gas and one foot on the accelerator. She has had to learn how to slow down and work through complex problems step by step. She used to do complex problems in her head, make a small error, and just write down an incorrect answer.

She did not use accommodations on the TJ test, because she wasn’t available on accommodations day. Her math test was so low, I was surprised she was admitted (40/50, Old test). Her verbal score was perfect (50/50, old test). She refused accommodations for Math 3 and got a C+. Agreed to use them going forward and is now an A-/B+ math student.

If she understands TJ math, which is very, very deep and hard, not just time constrained, at an A-/B+ level, why should she not be allowed to demonstrate that? Are colleges looking for fast? Or kids who really understand the subject.

BtW, she is killing it in physics and wants to major in that.

Your DD has a gifted IQ and average processing speed for which she gets extra time.

She is diagnosed with adhd for which she gets to take stimulants.

She doesn’t need extra time for TJ which is arguably one of the most rigorous high schools in the country.

She doesn’t need extra time for reading.

But she needs it for math. And I believe she scored a 780 with extra time.

what about the kids with 115 IQs and average processing speed? They get nothing

Now I understand your need for your dd to perform to her potential. But can you not see how unfair this is? The 115 kid is also really bright. He has the same processing speed as your dd but gets zero accommodations. When they would no doubt help him too. How is this system fair? Your dd has more processing power than him too with the higher IQ, but she gets the accommodations. Not him.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If your kid has a slow processing speed they deserve a lower score. This charade will end soon. Affluent parents gaming the system so their kid can bump their 1400 to a 1500 is going to end. They have to have a non-timed test, call it something else and offer it as an addition to the traditional ACT or SAT. Call it the NTSAT (non-timed SAT) offer to anyone with a 504 or to any kid who doesn't want to take the SAT with time constraints. Let the colleges then decide then. But the colleges should KNOW who is getting more time on these tests and this seems like the only fair way. NO MORE EXTRA TIME ON SAT OR ACT FOR ANYONE

Well, I have 15 year-old complaint that needs to be addressed. When I took the LSAT, it was on a hot and humid day on the college park campus. The building was under renovation and was demoed down to the concrete walls and floor; the cooling system was out and the windows were open -- which let in unmitigated the sounds of nearby construction. How many in my testing cohort suffered under the same testing conditions as I? Dare I say few; few indeed. I demand a retest!