The very definition of "standardized" means same test/same testing conditions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son and his friends (incoming college sophomores) all just got home from college for the summer. This is the kid who complained for years about us not sending him to a particular DR to get diagnosed with ADD since “just about all of his friends” were diagnosed with this (and “he has it much worse”) and his friends got unlimited test taking time.

Interestingly, the kids shared that all their friends (except for one kid) who had special accommodations in high school (always an IEP for ADD), have dropped out of college during/after freshman year. They said their friends could not hack it because they were not given the same accommodations in college.

The kids dropped out of some of the most well-known/expensive colleges across the US... He thinks there are at least 20 of these kids from his large HS who dropped out. According to him, the only “special accommodation” kid who could handle it is at a small, private college. The rest are either now working or attending community college. I thought this was interesting and I thought of this thread... BTW all these “special accommodation” kids are from upper middle class/wealthy families with highly educated parents.

I pressed him to admit that maybe his parents were actually right in making him complete HS and earn his college spot the traditional way (with fixed test-time limits and non-negotiable homework deadlines) and he ever so slightly nodded his head in agreement.... small victories.

So a bunch of UMC/wealthy kids with highly educated parents all dropped out and are working or in community college because they couldn't handle not having extra time? Twenty of them all from the same high school? If you get an A with extra time, you're not going to fail without extra time. You'll end up with a lower grade. If these kids are from UMC/wealthy families, their parents will pay for tutors/time management coaches to help them stay on top of their assignments. My friend's DD had major issues and managed to graduate from college. I doubt kids with made up ADD (made up--as you seem to imply by the reference to "a particular doctor) can't at least manage Cs if they had good enough grades to get into some of the most well-known colleges. But keep believing if it makes you feel better.

I believe the op. I think all the coddling and the “we accommodate every weakness in k-12” will come to a head in these next few years. Either that or we will see college change. If college is to change it’s not happening soon enough for a lot of kids who were used to having their hand held and being treated special because of a diagnosed learning disability—the kids who would not have made it to college a few years ago when high school was a true test of college readiness.

You believe that 20 UMC/wealthy kids from the same high school all dropped out the first year and are working or in community college because they didn't get extra time? These parents paid for testing for high school and didn't get tutors and coaches to help their kids through the first year of college? Ok.

Yeah. I do. It sounds like they were the Gifted/2e kids who were propped up by accommodations and then when they got to college they fell apart without the supports. Parents probably did get tutors and coaches but they were likely behind the curve. And kids don’t drop out after one year because of bad grades. I think the kids who do have just come to the realization that “whoa, this isn’t for me. I cannot hack this.” It’s just too much. It’s a shock. The pp said these were the top schools.

Unfortunately they were not the right fit for these students if pp is to be believed.

And I know colleges provide accommodations but they are not nearly doing the things these UMC high schools are doing.

My totally average legacy DH and his friends of similar ilk got through their Ivy just fine. If you think what the OP is saying makes sense, especially statistically, then you really have no clue how accommodations work, and you don't know how UMC/wealthy parents work regarding hiring as much help as possible to ensure their kids' success.

I know that UMC parents cannot move into their child’s dorm room which is what a lot of these kids are needing and what they were used to re executive function. It has nothing to do with smarts or how hard an Ivy League school is. It has everything to do with deficits that the child has not learned to overcome but rather has only been given advantages for—and he’s not getting all of them in college. He’s not failing out of college. He’s obviously choosing to drop out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son and his friends (incoming college sophomores) all just got home from college for the summer. This is the kid who complained for years about us not sending him to a particular DR to get diagnosed with ADD since “just about all of his friends” were diagnosed with this (and “he has it much worse”) and his friends got unlimited test taking time.

Interestingly, the kids shared that all their friends (except for one kid) who had special accommodations in high school (always an IEP for ADD), have dropped out of college during/after freshman year. They said their friends could not hack it because they were not given the same accommodations in college.

The kids dropped out of some of the most well-known/expensive colleges across the US... He thinks there are at least 20 of these kids from his large HS who dropped out. According to him, the only “special accommodation” kid who could handle it is at a small, private college. The rest are either now working or attending community college. I thought this was interesting and I thought of this thread... BTW all these “special accommodation” kids are from upper middle class/wealthy families with highly educated parents.

I pressed him to admit that maybe his parents were actually right in making him complete HS and earn his college spot the traditional way (with fixed test-time limits and non-negotiable homework deadlines) and he ever so slightly nodded his head in agreement.... small victories.

So a bunch of UMC/wealthy kids with highly educated parents all dropped out and are working or in community college because they couldn't handle not having extra time? Twenty of them all from the same high school? If you get an A with extra time, you're not going to fail without extra time. You'll end up with a lower grade. If these kids are from UMC/wealthy families, their parents will pay for tutors/time management coaches to help them stay on top of their assignments. My friend's DD had major issues and managed to graduate from college. I doubt kids with made up ADD (made up--as you seem to imply by the reference to "a particular doctor) can't at least manage Cs if they had good enough grades to get into some of the most well-known colleges. But keep believing if it makes you feel better.

I believe the op. I think all the coddling and the “we accommodate every weakness in k-12” will come to a head in these next few years. Either that or we will see college change. If college is to change it’s not happening soon enough for a lot of kids who were used to having their hand held and being treated special because of a diagnosed learning disability—the kids who would not have made it to college a few years ago when high school was a true test of college readiness.

You believe that 20 UMC/wealthy kids from the same high school all dropped out the first year and are working or in community college because they didn't get extra time? These parents paid for testing for high school and didn't get tutors and coaches to help their kids through the first year of college? Ok.

Yeah. I do. It sounds like they were the Gifted/2e kids who were propped up by accommodations and then when they got to college they fell apart without the supports. Parents probably did get tutors and coaches but they were likely behind the curve. And kids don’t drop out after one year because of bad grades. I think the kids who do have just come to the realization that “whoa, this isn’t for me. I cannot hack this.” It’s just too much. It’s a shock. The pp said these were the top schools.

Unfortunately they were not the right fit for these students if pp is to be believed.

And I know colleges provide accommodations but they are not nearly doing the things these UMC high schools are doing.

My totally average legacy DH and his friends of similar ilk got through their Ivy just fine. If you think what the OP is saying makes sense, especially statistically, then you really have no clue how accommodations work, and you don't know how UMC/wealthy parents work regarding hiring as much help as possible to ensure their kids' success.

I know that UMC parents cannot move into their child’s dorm room which is what a lot of these kids are needing and what they were used to re executive function. It has nothing to do with smarts or how hard an Ivy League school is. It has everything to do with deficits that the child has not learned to overcome but rather has only been given advantages for—and he’s not getting all of them in college. He’s not failing out of college. He’s obviously choosing to drop out.

Ok. You and OP are right, and the person who teaches at a college (and has actual experience) who says this is a huge statistical anomaly is wrong

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

For crying out loud. Because I believe a lady’s story? I’ve got a kid who gets accommodations. I know how it works. Letting an LD child get in over their head does no one any favors.

Because you believe a lady's unbelievable story. Also, the lady is strongly implying that these are kids WITHOUT LD's, so your experience with your child is not relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Accommodations are a joke. 30 year ago there were no kids diagnosed with adhd and everybody did just fine. But now mommy wants her kid to get into a prestigious school that isn’t a good fit but will let her boast to her friends and accommodations are sprouting like mushrooms. And I’d guess the vast majority of accommodations are fake anyway....utter nonsense.

No, everybody didn't do just fine. I have a friend who has ADD and did way below her potential. It was a struggle for her well into adulthood. She was finally diagnosed as an adult, takes medication and it has changed her life tremendously. Thirty years ago, we were willing to let kids with potential fail because we labeled them lazy or dumb. Maybe some accommodations are fake, but for those with real issues, they aren't utter nonsense. They allow people with LDs to access a good education so they can be meaningfully employed. Once out of college, they can chose a career that plays to their strengths, and be successful in life. They don't have that chance if they are undereducated because they are denied appropriate accommodations/access. Might my kid without accommodations be slightly disadvantaged because others get extra time? Maybe, but I prefer that to having kids fall through the cracks and have to struggle through life because I'm too competitive to want these kids to get help. My DC will be fine, as will most kids with no LDs, regardless of which college they attend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My son and his friends (incoming college sophomores) all just got home from college for the summer. This is the kid who complained for years about us not sending him to a particular DR to get diagnosed with ADD since “just about all of his friends” were diagnosed with this (and “he has it much worse”) and his friends got unlimited test taking time.

Interestingly, the kids shared that all their friends (except for one kid) who had special accommodations in high school (always an IEP for ADD), have dropped out of college during/after freshman year. They said their friends could not hack it because they were not given the same accommodations in college.

The kids dropped out of some of the most well-known/expensive colleges across the US... He thinks there are at least 20 of these kids from his large HS who dropped out. According to him, the only “special accommodation” kid who could handle it is at a small, private college. The rest are either now working or attending community college. I thought this was interesting and I thought of this thread... BTW all these “special accommodation” kids are from upper middle class/wealthy families with highly educated parents.

I pressed him to admit that maybe his parents were actually right in making him complete HS and earn his college spot the traditional way (with fixed test-time limits and non-negotiable homework deadlines) and he ever so slightly nodded his head in agreement.... small victories.

So a bunch of UMC/wealthy kids with highly educated parents all dropped out and are working or in community college because they couldn't handle not having extra time? Twenty of them all from the same high school? If you get an A with extra time, you're not going to fail without extra time. You'll end up with a lower grade. If these kids are from UMC/wealthy families, their parents will pay for tutors/time management coaches to help them stay on top of their assignments. My friend's DD had major issues and managed to graduate from college. I doubt kids with made up ADD (made up--as you seem to imply by the reference to "a particular doctor) can't at least manage Cs if they had good enough grades to get into some of the most well-known colleges. But keep believing if it makes you feel better.

I believe the op. I think all the coddling and the “we accommodate every weakness in k-12” will come to a head in these next few years. Either that or we will see college change. If college is to change it’s not happening soon enough for a lot of kids who were used to having their hand held and being treated special because of a diagnosed learning disability—the kids who would not have made it to college a few years ago when high school was a true test of college readiness.

You believe that 20 UMC/wealthy kids from the same high school all dropped out the first year and are working or in community college because they didn't get extra time? These parents paid for testing for high school and didn't get tutors and coaches to help their kids through the first year of college? Ok.

Yeah. I do. It sounds like they were the Gifted/2e kids who were propped up by accommodations and then when they got to college they fell apart without the supports. Parents probably did get tutors and coaches but they were likely behind the curve. And kids don’t drop out after one year because of bad grades. I think the kids who do have just come to the realization that “whoa, this isn’t for me. I cannot hack this.” It’s just too much. It’s a shock. The pp said these were the top schools.

Unfortunately they were not the right fit for these students if pp is to be believed.

And I know colleges provide accommodations but they are not nearly doing the things these UMC high schools are doing.

You sound unhinges.

+1. My junior gets time and a half for math and math based science (chem and physics). He can get a extra day or two if multiple projects fall due at the same time. But he rarely does, because it just puts him in a hole as more work becomes due. And teachers at this school will give this accommodation to any student who asks under the written student advocacy guidelines. Two major assignments due the same day, you can request and extra class period for one.

And... that’s it. He completes every assignment. 98% on time. And is graded to the same standards. The only real difference is that he is given 2/3 of his math and science exams during the class period, and has to go after school to do the last 1/3.

The only other intervention this year was I emailed 2 teachers who had “did not complete” and 0s in Grade book last week to make sure all work was turned in before the end of the year. This was only after he had checked with the teachers and been told they would look into it. 2 months ago. Both got back to me in under an hour to say they had received the assignments and mis-entered them into Grade book. This was the only time we had to work with his teachers this year, except for his annual 504 meeting.

So, does this set him up to fail in college? He will probably this summer and continue to request extra time in math and physics/chemistry in college. And... that’s it.

BTW, my kid got a 1520 on the SAT (740 V/780 M) and 800s on the math and physics SAT 2 tests. With extra time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Accommodations are a joke. 30 year ago there were no kids diagnosed with adhd and everybody did just fine. But now mommy wants her kid to get into a prestigious school that isn’t a good fit but will let her boast to her friends and accommodations are sprouting like mushrooms. And I’d guess the vast majority of accommodations are fake anyway....utter nonsense.

No 30 years ago, bright girls with ADHD usually learned coping mechanisms, but they came with a price. Many had crippling anxiety and/or OCD as the competing demands outstripped their ability to balance them.

And ADHD boys hit a wall and started failing. It might be MS, HS or college. But eventually, they couldn’t manage anymore. My first college boyfriend was brilliant, especially in math and CS. And had a full academic scholarship to our T25 college. He was also almost certainly undiagnosed ADHD. He flunked out sophomore year.

30 years ago, MS and HS academics were less demanding, ADHD kids were labeled discipline problems, problems stemming from ADHD existed but were labeled something else. And ADHD boys, especially, failed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Truth is, more time on a (proctored, closed book) standardized test doesn’t make you smarter or enable you to know more. It just gives people a chance to show what they already know/can do.

Why do people make this silly claim? I remember taking the SAT. If I had twice as much time, I could have done better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Accommodations are a joke. 30 year ago there were no kids diagnosed with adhd and everybody did just fine. But now mommy wants her kid to get into a prestigious school that isn’t a good fit but will let her boast to her friends and accommodations are sprouting like mushrooms. And I’d guess the vast majority of accommodations are fake anyway....utter nonsense.

Teachers had more leeway.. good teachers gave accommodations.. i received accommodations and there was not IEP meeting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, the argument is always made in terms of take away the extra time for SN kids instead of give everyone more (or enough) time, so that the tests assess knowledge/ability rather than speed.

That is incorrect - people are asking for untimed tests or extra time for all. The ones opposing are the parents who have accomodations for their kids with their reasonings that extra time does not help, you don’t understand SN, etc. They protest too much hence one begins to suspect that too much time has been given which helped their kids more than it should have.

That's like saying you want to be able to park in the handicapped spot even though you don't have a disability. Or that you should be able to have a therapy dog on the plane even though you don't have a condition that warrants one. Let's think about that for a sec. If you let everyone have the handicapped spots, there will be none for those who need them. If you let everyone take a dog on the plane, there would be mayhem and those who need the therapy will be stressed.

Giving everyone the extra time does one thing. It puts those who have the disabilities in the same position as having no extra time. That's because the scores of those who don't need the time will potentially increase and adjust the curve to a point that ends up putting the special needs kids at the same disadvantage before the increased time. If that is the case, why bother even giving the extra time.

.

It's not like handicapped spots at all! There are a limited number of spots close to the store. On the other hand, there is no comparable limit to giving everyone extra/unlimited time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, the argument is always made in terms of take away the extra time for SN kids instead of give everyone more (or enough) time, so that the tests assess knowledge/ability rather than speed.

That is incorrect - people are asking for untimed tests or extra time for all. The ones opposing are the parents who have accomodations for their kids with their reasonings that extra time does not help, you don’t understand SN, etc. They protest too much hence one begins to suspect that too much time has been given which helped their kids more than it should have.

That's like saying you want to be able to park in the handicapped spot even though you don't have a disability. Or that you should be able to have a therapy dog on the plane even though you don't have a condition that warrants one. Let's think about that for a sec. If you let everyone have the handicapped spots, there will be none for those who need them. If you let everyone take a dog on the plane, there would be mayhem and those who need the therapy will be stressed.

Giving everyone the extra time does one thing. It puts those who have the disabilities in the same position as having no extra time. That's because the scores of those who don't need the time will potentially increase and adjust the curve to a point that ends up putting the special needs kids at the same disadvantage before the increased time. If that is the case, why bother even giving the extra time.

.

It's not like handicapped spots at all! There are a limited number of spots close to the store. On the other hand, there is no comparable limit to giving everyone extra/unlimited time.

It's more like glasses,,,, kids that don't need glasses won't benefit. So you are not going to take away glasses from kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, the argument is always made in terms of take away the extra time for SN kids instead of give everyone more (or enough) time, so that the tests assess knowledge/ability rather than speed.

That is incorrect - people are asking for untimed tests or extra time for all. The ones opposing are the parents who have accomodations for their kids with their reasonings that extra time does not help, you don’t understand SN, etc. They protest too much hence one begins to suspect that too much time has been given which helped their kids more than it should have.

That's like saying you want to be able to park in the handicapped spot even though you don't have a disability. Or that you should be able to have a therapy dog on the plane even though you don't have a condition that warrants one. Let's think about that for a sec. If you let everyone have the handicapped spots, there will be none for those who need them. If you let everyone take a dog on the plane, there would be mayhem and those who need the therapy will be stressed.

Giving everyone the extra time does one thing. It puts those who have the disabilities in the same position as having no extra time. That's because the scores of those who don't need the time will potentially increase and adjust the curve to a point that ends up putting the special needs kids at the same disadvantage before the increased time. If that is the case, why bother even giving the extra time.

.

It's not like handicapped spots at all! There are a limited number of spots close to the store. On the other hand, there is no comparable limit to giving everyone extra/unlimited time.

It's more like glasses,,,, kids that don't need glasses won't benefit. So you are not going to take away glasses from kids.

Great, so if extra time isn't beneficial for others, why is the test timed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And yet, the argument is always made in terms of take away the extra time for SN kids instead of give everyone more (or enough) time, so that the tests assess knowledge/ability rather than speed.

That is incorrect - people are asking for untimed tests or extra time for all. The ones opposing are the parents who have accomodations for their kids with their reasonings that extra time does not help, you don’t understand SN, etc. They protest too much hence one begins to suspect that too much time has been given which helped their kids more than it should have.

That's like saying you want to be able to park in the handicapped spot even though you don't have a disability. Or that you should be able to have a therapy dog on the plane even though you don't have a condition that warrants one. Let's think about that for a sec. If you let everyone have the handicapped spots, there will be none for those who need them. If you let everyone take a dog on the plane, there would be mayhem and those who need the therapy will be stressed.

Giving everyone the extra time does one thing. It puts those who have the disabilities in the same position as having no extra time. That's because the scores of those who don't need the time will potentially increase and adjust the curve to a point that ends up putting the special needs kids at the same disadvantage before the increased time. If that is the case, why bother even giving the extra time.

.

It's not like handicapped spots at all! There are a limited number of spots close to the store. On the other hand, there is no comparable limit to giving everyone extra/unlimited time.

It's more like glasses,,,, kids that don't need glasses won't benefit. So you are not going to take away glasses from kids.

Great, so if extra time isn't beneficial for others, why is the test timed?

far cheaper and easier to administer

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Accommodations are a joke. 30 year ago there were no kids diagnosed with adhd and everybody did just fine. But now mommy wants her kid to get into a prestigious school that isn’t a good fit but will let her boast to her friends and accommodations are sprouting like mushrooms. And I’d guess the vast majority of accommodations are fake anyway....utter nonsense.

No 30 years ago, bright girls with ADHD usually learned coping mechanisms, but they came with a price. Many had crippling anxiety and/or OCD as the competing demands outstripped their ability to balance them.

And ADHD boys hit a wall and started failing. It might be MS, HS or college. But eventually, they couldn’t manage anymore. My first college boyfriend was brilliant, especially in math and CS. And had a full academic scholarship to our T25 college. He was also almost certainly undiagnosed ADHD. He flunked out sophomore year.

30 years ago, MS and HS academics were less demanding, ADHD kids were labeled discipline problems, problems stemming from ADHD existed but were labeled something else. And ADHD boys, especially, failed.

Thank you. Wow, the idiocy on this thread. Some of these people must live under a rock or have pent up jealousy towards others who have ultimately done better than them in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want employees who can do the job in the alotted time. I want to know who cant before I hire them.

I have never once asked for the standardized test scores of any person I've interviewed for a job in the past 15 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:LOL, you people are so angry...it is comical. So glad my ADHD kid got his deserved extra time that he needed and scored well on the ACT and got into his first choice top 20 school. As for what is done to curb the abuse, I doubt it will change much. Maybe be more careful about who gets accommodations. If you have a kid who struggled since elementary school, it is doubtful that kid is "gaming the system." I believe it is more suspect when kids suddenly in late middle school or in high school decide to get evaluated. Maybe just have more stringent requirements for evaluation for them.

But you will NEVER see the accommodations go away. Sorry, but you won't win this one...nice try though.

Sure it will. Your kid will have a hard time in a top 20 school bc of his SN.

LOL, I doubt that very much as he got a 36 on the act and had a 4.2 GPA -- extremely gifted. They also have accommodations in the top 20 school. And his processing speed has been improving, so maybe he won't need the accommodations. Nice try again. Jealous your kid only got in his safety I guess

Your kid has Special Needs, received an IEP and 504. He would not have scored highly on the standardized tests or in school otherwise. His slow processing speed will be an issue in college and in the workplace. I suppose he can find a job that has accommodations for his SN too.

DP here and sounds like you're advocating for robots.

I know quite a few highly creative and intelligent people who have done amazing things in their life and career and who are lollygaggers. You're advocating for everyone to be put into a box. That is NOT "thinking outside the box" and leads to stagnation in innovation.