Discussion over whether to expand Tyler dual-lang program turns to gentrification debate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Chinese teachers whose educational experiences took place in more traditional, teacher-centered classrooms are aware of significant cultural differences and participant expectations. For example, US schools place a strong emphasis on social skills and language for communicative purposes. Children expect learner-centered activities with real-life tasks. Chinese teachers often hold a different set of expectations for students and thus, they frequently need support for classroom management strategies and techniques.[xxxii]


Promoting student understanding of more abstract and complex concepts becomes increasingly difficult in the upper elementary grades and beyond. Some upper-elementary immersion teachers, in particular those who teach in partial or 50:50 programs, report difficulties in teaching advanced-level subject matter because students' cognitive development is at a higher level than their proficiency in the second language.[xxxv] This challenge becomes more pronounced in programs where the immersion language is character-based, since literacy development is more time-consuming and demanding.[xxxvi]

I thought this thread was about Spanish immersion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's fine to have dual language as an option (have half the school non-Spanish or make the school city-wide) but it absolutely should not be foisted on everyone. It certainly shouldn't be the only option as your neighborhood, inbound school. Just because rich, white people want it doesn't mean that it's good for everyone or that everyone wants it.

Ahem—many rich Black people, like myself, want it too. My children are in upper elementary and middle school, and they have attended immersion schools since preschool. I’m thrilled that my husband and I are able to give them the gift of a second (and third) language.

[Anonymous]

For many families learning a second language well is not a fad. In fact, this country could use more cross-cultural understanding these days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For many families learning a second language well is not a fad. In fact, this country could use more cross-cultural understanding these days.

you can learn a second language without immersion. you can also find a dual-language program without colonizing someone else's school. and let's not forget that the tyler spanish parents ***already*** have an immersion program. but it's not enough for them and they want to kick the (mostly black) kids out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For many families learning a second language well is not a fad. In fact, this country could use more cross-cultural understanding these days.

you can learn a second language without immersion. you can also find a dual-language program without colonizing someone else's school. and let's not forget that the tyler spanish parents ***already*** have an immersion program. but it's not enough for them and they want to kick the (mostly black) kids out.

Black kids can do immersion to, you racist.

[Anonymous]

I seriously doubt most people really care about Chinese Immersion. If any of the parents are like Heritage Dad, posting constantly, count me out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Chinese teachers whose educational experiences took place in more traditional, teacher-centered classrooms are aware of significant cultural differences and participant expectations. For example, US schools place a strong emphasis on social skills and language for communicative purposes. Children expect learner-centered activities with real-life tasks. Chinese teachers often hold a different set of expectations for students and thus, they frequently need support for classroom management strategies and techniques.[xxxii]


Promoting student understanding of more abstract and complex concepts becomes increasingly difficult in the upper elementary grades and beyond. Some upper-elementary immersion teachers, in particular those who teach in partial or 50:50 programs, report difficulties in teaching advanced-level subject matter because students' cognitive development is at a higher level than their proficiency in the second language.[xxxv] This challenge becomes more pronounced in programs where the immersion language is character-based, since literacy development is more time-consuming and demanding.[xxxvi]

I thought this thread was about Spanish immersion?

Heritage dad can’t help himself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

NP. I went and read several of the studies around dual immersion when I was considering education options for my kids. PPs statement about the 50 studies and what they supposedly show wildly exaggerates the available literature. I decided against immersion, incidentally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

NP. I went and read several of the studies around dual immersion when I was considering education options for my kids. PPs statement about the 50 studies and what they supposedly show wildly exaggerates the available literature. I decided against immersion, incidentally.

I also studied about immersion, and was raised bilingually. I’m happy we have had the opportunity to also raise our children in a multi-lingual household, and they attend an immersion school. I’m not saying immersion is for everyone, but it has been outstanding for us. I believe in the science behind immersion, and am happy we have the chance to send our kids to such a school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

NP. I went and read several of the studies around dual immersion when I was considering education options for my kids. PPs statement about the 50 studies and what they supposedly show wildly exaggerates the available literature. I decided against immersion, incidentally.

I also studied about immersion, and was raised bilingually. I’m happy we have had the opportunity to also raise our children in a multi-lingual household, and they attend an immersion school. I’m not saying immersion is for everyone, but it has been outstanding for us. I believe in the science behind immersion, and am happy we have the chance to send our kids to such a school.

Are you a native speaker of the language that your children are learning?

When you say you "believe the science," what do you mean? Have you read the actual studies about second languages and immersion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For many families learning a second language well is not a fad. In fact, this country could use more cross-cultural understanding these days.

you can learn a second language without immersion. you can also find a dual-language program without colonizing someone else's school. and let's not forget that the tyler spanish parents ***already*** have an immersion program. but it's not enough for them and they want to kick the (mostly black) kids out.

Black kids can do immersion to, you racist.

This isn’t racist. It’s the truth at Tyler. Tyler parents are in here saying it’s true. Tyler has an immersion program. Immersion parents are pushing for more. Just like they push for for all of the extra resources. They don’t care who they are displacing. And yes, the families they are displacing are mostly black. When you get to K and above in the creative arts program they are almost all black and the immersion parents want them gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought the story was poorly done - I’m still not sure why low income families don’t want dual language. The only reason they gave was bc they don’t have time to help with homework, but I don’t speak Spanish and wouldn’t be able to help my kid with Spanish homework either. Seemed like wapo wanted to just debate the issue without proviiding all the facts.

Because if you are not at grade level in your native language and have poor test scores in English and Math, dual language is not a good fit. it's not like speaking two-languages brings advantages just by itself otherwise the local Latino students would overall be doing a lot better at DCPS, at most schools AA and Latino families are two subgroups that need more support. This argument is never clearly articulated when talking about the introduction of dual-language programs.

There are at least 50 peer reviewed studies that find that learning a second language improves performance in the first. The idea that poor children can't handle a second language is nonsense unsupported by research.

What has proven true all over the city is that putting a dual language program in a gentrified neighborhood tends to keep the middle class IB residents in the school, pushing out everyone else. This is why the city has had to introduce dual language lotteries. African American OOB residents who don't have a child at the school already lose access.

All very true, but leave it to our local populists to prove the earth is flat.

NP. Do those 50 studies look at learning in an immersion model, or simply at learning another language? I'm not disputing that learning a second language improves linguistic skills in general (I'm a multilingual immigrant), but it seems unlikely that learning subjects (math, science, humanities) in a new language would not make this learning more difficult, and wouldn't at least somewhat impede progress in perfecting mastery of your native language until you are truly comfortable in the target language.

Also, are there private schools that offer an immersion model along the lines public and charter schools do? And why have no schools in Upper NW tried it? It sure does seem like it is primarily a strategy to keep high-SES families in the local schools, even if there are benefits supported by research.

NP. I went and read several of the studies around dual immersion when I was considering education options for my kids. PPs statement about the 50 studies and what they supposedly show wildly exaggerates the available literature. I decided against immersion, incidentally.

NP. Same. We don't speak Spanish and rejected a spot at MV. You're too logical for DCUM, PP, like the Chinese heritage parents who post on Yuying threads.

[Anonymous]

Immersion is more about a school within a school for SES mixed areas than pure academics. It is an opt in program for parents who want to opt out so to speak. Most kids don’t come out anywhere close to bilingual anymore than kids who take a few years of any language in school. And that is what most studies show.

It is naïve and disingenuous to act simply educationally principled and when the side of the population you are fighting to opt out from objects and are able to see through the BS that expanding the program is tantamount to asking for the school to enforce through policy a reproportioning of the student body. Less “those kids” and more upper SES language and parents please!

That said there are many, many legitimate reasons most Families don’t want those types of kids and parents around and in a perfect it would be wise for those familes to structurally address their value add to society. But this isn’t a perfect world and they have to go to school somewhere.

Truth is most people with money either consciously or subconsciously try and create places like Bethesda, Georgetown and North Arlington when they move in. The poor will be mostly pushed out eventually. This is just what that process looks like because it will never be quick enough. They can’t argue that so it is “dam it, my baby needs to learn Chinese”. Sure Bryce does

[Anonymous]

I’d be ticked if my school switched to immersion. I believe there can be value, but be honest I just haven’t been impressed with most of the immersion programs I’ve seen in DCPS and DCPCS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Immersion is more about a school within a school for SES mixed areas than pure academics. It is an opt in program for parents who want to opt out so to speak. Most kids don’t come out anywhere close to bilingual anymore than kids who take a few years of any language in school. And that is what most studies show.

It is naïve and disingenuous to act simply educationally principled and when the side of the population you are fighting to opt out from objects and are able to see through the BS that expanding the program is tantamount to asking for the school to enforce through policy a reproportioning of the student body. Less “those kids” and more upper SES language and parents please!

That said there are many, many legitimate reasons most Families don’t want those types of kids and parents around and in a perfect it would be wise for those familes to structurally address their value add to society. But this isn’t a perfect world and they have to go to school somewhere.

Truth is most people with money either consciously or subconsciously try and create places like Bethesda, Georgetown and North Arlington when they move in. The poor will be mostly pushed out eventually. This is just what that process looks like because it will never be quick enough. They can’t argue that so it is “dam it, my baby needs to learn Chinese”. Sure Bryce does

I love it when white people speak for the poor blacks.

We have a lottery that doesn’t discriminate. Tyler is obviously a convenient location, unlike many charter immersion schools.

There are many black children doing very well in immersion programs. There is a demand for immersion, even among black people, who you seem to think don’t want immersion based on the quotes of a few people who clearly just don’t want more Hispanics and whites people at their school.