Why Muslims Don't Believe in Concept of Trinity
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
You can't be averse to calling and speaking to scholars on both sides of an issue. If you want to learn the truth, you have to be open to all opinions. I encourage you and anyone intertested to start investigating on their own, speak to many scholars, and ask for proof. It will be time consuming but well worth it for those of you who are truly interested in learning the truth. I have yet to read the wikipedia Ebionites link. But I quickly googled Ebionites and found this link: http://ebionite.org and it contains their manifesto. If this is the same Ebionites group, it seems they denounce the trinity and divinity concepts introduced by the New Testament. And it looks like on this web site they clearly say they also reject Islam, despite the fact that Islam's position on Jesus is quite similar to the Ebionites. I am interested enough about this topic to call Dr. Dirks to ask him specifically how we know the original manuscript is indeed the ORIGINAL one. I will report back. |
Anonymous
I can't believe anyone would bother. So the Ebionites reject the trinity as it is set out in mainstream theology. There were lots of groups in early Christianity that had alll kinds of take on the trinity. But the PP who started this seems to be arguing: 1. There was an early group of Christians who rejected the trinity and Jesus's divinity, 2. some Harvard educated guy read their incredibly scant writings and converted to Islam, 3. If a couple of early manuscripts denied the Trinity, Christian teaching of the Trinity must be an anti-Islamic conspiracy, 4. Any right thinking person would see through this conspiracy and convert to Islam. This is crazy. Another major difference between Christian is that Islam believes Mohammed was a prophet of God and Christianity doesn't. Ebionites didn't think Mohammed was a messenger of God either--he didn't exist at the time. So the trinity can't be an anti-Islamic conspiracy--the whole doctrinal dispute was well settled before Mohammed was born. Once again, the natural fall back for an Eionite would be Judaism, not Islam, whether the adherent lived 1800 years ago or is living today. This Harvard grad's conversion to Islam is an aberrancy and certainly could not be rooted in the seven extant sentences of the Ebionite oevre. |
Anonymous
But why conjecture when you can find out what Dr. Dirks read and what his proof is? |
Anonymous
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Different PP here. OP's link to this modern-day Ebionite group, whoever they are (here, http://ebionite.org/) is very clear that they are Jewish and NOT Christian. In fact, their website says Christianity is evil. So all power to these modern-day Ebionites OP dug up, but apparently they have zero relationship to the "early Jewish-Christian" group in the centuries right after Christ, to which Epiphanius and Dirks are referring.
I see no reason not to believe the Wikipedia passages about the Ebionites from the early Christian Era. Meanwhile, OP, you need to revise your argument about the Trinity, to the extent you think you've "proven" anything. Go right ahead and call Dirks. Until you can articulate his position or anybody else's position, however, please refrain from statements like your earlier claim that you "proved" anything here. Signed, a PP who isn't invested in the a Trinity, but who is curious and who is frustrated by OP's careless logic |
Anonymous
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I'm a real nerd, and this discussion got me interested in the Ebionites.
First off, there's a lot of debate about who the Ebionites were, and what we mean when we say "Ebionite". Appparently at one point all Judeo-Christians (i.e, still practicing Mosaic law) were referred to as "Ebionites." Also, there is a lot of "legend" (not my own word, see the Jewish source that follows) about individual Ebionite leaders and their groups (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5411-ebionites). We do NOT have an original Ebionite gospel, despite Muslim OP's claims that we do. Many believe the Ebionites used a modified version of the Gospel of Matthew (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05242c.htm, also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=gospel+of+ebionites&go=Go), with some obvious differences about Christ's divinity. Some groups of Ebionites may have had almost gnostic beliefs (i.e., they may have shared the gnostic idea of the "demi-urge"), but there appears to have been a lot of variation. The Ebionites probably continued to observe Mosaic law and things like circumcision. But again, we will never know for sure, because the original Ebionite manuscripts have vanished. There were apparently some contemporaneous accounts of various Ebionite groups, but all of these have been lost, with the exception of the fragment from Epiphanius, who may or may not have understood the Ebionites. Again, you can read this fragment here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=gospel+of+ebionites&go=Go. The references in Epiphanius to Ebionites arguing the point at which Jesus became divine (at birth vs. at baptism) are interesting for this debate on the Trinity, because this is the only fragment we still have today, and it doesn't actually challenge Christ's divinity. I went to Dirk's website to see what exactly he says. There's nothing there about the Trinity, just how to contact him for speeches. (http://www.jeralddirksanddebradirks.com/) Per his website, Dirks has been a practicing psychologist for the last 20 years. He is not, and never has been a Harvard Divinity School professor as OP claimed in her post of 09/11/2014 10:42 on the 2nd or 3rd page of thread. However, Dirks has taught at some Muslim middle schools. So I'm not sure about representing him as an eminent theologian. I definitely wouldn't put him in the same category as that home-churcher Muslim PP likes to cite as representative of all Christianity (this is the guy who says himself that he dropped out of two different universities because they told him not to take the Old Testament literally, but OP linked to this home churcher as supposed proof that all Christians should take the Old Testament literally). Also, it seems suggestive that none of the many online sites about the Ebionites even mention Dirks, although most of these sites (some of which I've linked to above) are very careful to cite multiple sources. You wouldn't necessarily expect the Christian websites to mention Dirks, but the Jewish sites or Wikipedia sources on the Ebionites might do so if he were a respected authority. All of this suggests that Dirks' views on the Ebionites have yet to make him a widely-cited authority in this field. (How's that for an understatement?) FWIW. Dirk's website makes it easy to contact him (for speaking gigs), so I'm not sure what OP is waiting for. |
Anonymous
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PP--I applaud your diligence in further investigating this rather obscure group of early Christians. They are of interest in their own right in the context of the various early theological struggles of nascent Christianity.
But I have to say, I have really, really missed what possible relevance the Ebionites have to Islam's lack of belief in the trinity. There is no evidence this group existed in 7th century western Arabia. Nestorians did exist, and Mohammed was said to have been influenced by a Nestorian monk, whose name I recall as Bahira. (Don't hold me to this--am not as diligent as you in looking this stuff all up for purposes of this thread). Nestorians emphasized the human nature of Christ, as does Islam, with the difference that Nestorian theology had some convoluted link to Christ's divinity and Islam doesn't. I also don't get why the beliefs of one Christian convert to Islam, who appears to have an extremely small sphere of influence, should inform anyone's thinking on the merits of the trinity, Islam's lack of belief thereof, and the essential truth or not of Islam. I don't see why what this mysterious Dirks thinks or not matters at all. Islam cannot accept the trinity because if the prophet Jesus is also God come to earth, a later prophet, eg Mohammed, is redundant. |
Anonymous
I'm with you, I'm not sure why OP thought this was relevant either. I wouldn't have bothered, except that OP keeps insisting that Dirks and the Ebionites somehow (1) "prove" her point about the Trinity and therefore (2) "debunk" (OP's word) all the rest of Christianity. For example, OP claimed just yesterday that Dirks proves she's right on the Trinity at 09/12/2014 16:58. OP has a long history on DCUM of claiming she "won" arguments she clearly lost. OP is the type of poster who links to things she hasn't read herself, and continues to insist that she's right until you refute every single angle of her obscure links. Given my own happiness in nerdy pursuits like this one, I decided to investigate a little. Next time OP claims she "won" the Trinity argument, therefore she "debunked" all of Christianity, and therefore everybody here should convert to Islam... somebody can call her out. If I'm not on DCUM, anybody who thinks that OP is full of it can simply cut and paste from my post above. OP's claim that Dirks is, or ever was, a Harvard Divinity School professor--no words. He's practiced psychology for the last 20 years. We agree, I think, that 7th century Arabia was a veritable marketplace for ideas as well as commerce. One of the sources I linked to says the Ebionites may have influenced the later Nestorians. It seems like a stretch though--given (a) the several hundred years that elapsed between the Ebionites and the Nestorians, and (b) the fact that we have no original Ebionite manuscripts and instead we are relying on people who disagreed with them--to hinge any argument on the Ebionites themselves. Let alone for OP to keep insisting that this "debunks" Christianity or that everybody should therefore convert to Islam. I agree with your argument that Mohammed had personal reasons for proving that Jesus was not "divine" and therefore another prophet--Mohammed himself--was needed. None of OP's arguments make sense to me. Call me agnostic on the whole Trinity issue. |
Anonymous
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Ok PP, you got to my inner nerd by saying that the Ebionites influenced the Nestorians. I couldn't make some of your links work, but I found this blog, which relies on a book I haven't looked up so I have no idea of the quality of scholarship:
http://staringattheview.blogspot.com/2010/10/ebionites-muhammad-and-quran.html This maintains that the guardian of Mohammed (who was an orphan), was the leader of the Ebionite community in Mecca and was grooming him to follow him as leader. Since the Ebionites did not believe Jesus was God, the idea of Mohammed as a prophet was not heretical to an Ebionite. It is kind of fascinating and one could view Islam as a latter day Ebionism. In turn, you could view Ebionism as either a Jewish heresy or a Christian heresy and, thus, Islam itself as either of those, I do know that respectable scholars have written how one could view Islam that way. What this blog does (I presume based on the book cited) is provide the link from Islam to Judasim and Christianity through the Ebionites. Maybe this is why OP is so fascinated by the Ebionites and their rejection of the trinity. |
Anonymous
Thanks for that link! I think you're right, it does suggest a link between the Ebionites and Islam, and perhaps it explains OP's fascination. I'm still not persuaded about any of OP's logic. 1. I'm not persuaded this tiny sect of Ebionites was right, and lots of other people were wrong, about Jesus' divinity or the Trinity. 2. I'm don't buy that rejecting the Trinity means you have to reject the rest of Christianity. 3. I'm not persuaded that Islam would be a natural alternative to Christianity, given the vast differences between the Islam and Christianity (eye for eye, animal sacrifice, dietary laws, baptism, communion, treatment of women and non-believers, love your enemy, and so much more). |
Anonymous
Do jewish people today love Jesus? No they do not. But the Ebionites do, which makes them quite different from Jewish people. Regardless of how they feel toward Christianty today, they have great admiration for Jesus and this distinguishes them from the typical Jewish faith. Time and time again you choose to stick your head in the sand. |
Anonymous
So you're actually arguing: 1. Jewish people don't love Jesus, but 2. The Ebionites love Jesus, Therefore 3. The Ebionites are right about the Trinity and Christians are wrong about the Trinity, and so 4. All Christians should convert to Islam (not to Judaism, atheism or some Eastern religion). Do you see why your logic breaks down utterly at #3 and #4? You can insult people all you want about having their heads in the sand. But your logic will never make sense. |
Anonymous
You remind me of Drew Barrymore in 50 First Dates, where she had some kind of brain disorder that caused her brain to erase it's short term memory every morning…because every time you accuse me of using Dirks or the Ebionites to "debunk the entire Christian faith" and accuse me of telling "everyone to convert to Islam" I tell you that my evidence doesn't do that and isn't intended for that. But then the next morning you wake up again with the same accusations. Yes, he graduated from Harvard Divinity School. I do not know if he taught there. Here is his full biography: We are very sorry that with his writing and speaking obligations Dr. Dirks can't fit in time to do facebook. To contact him directly please use our web page jeraldanddebradirks.com or our email dirksjf_dls@yahoo.com. Thank you. Peace, Debra L. Dirks Description Dr. Dirks is a former minister (deacon) of the United Methodist Church. He holds a Master's degree in Divinity from Harvard University and a Doctorate in Psychology from the University of Denver. Author of "The Cross and the Crescent: An Interfaith Dialogue between Christianity and Islam" (2001), and "Abraham: The Friend of God" (2002). He has published over 60 articles in the field of clinical psychology, and over 150 articles on Arabian horses. Dr Dirks- "There is some irony in the fact that the supposedly best, brightest, and most idealistic of ministers-to-be are selected for the very best of seminary education, e.g. that offered at that time at the Harvard Divinity School. The irony is that, given such an education, the seminarian is exposed to ... much ... historical truth. .. As such, it is no real wonder that almost a majority of such seminary graduates leave seminary, not to “fill pulpits”, where they would be asked to preach that which they know is not true, but to enter the various counseling professions. Such was also the case for me, as I went on to earn a master’s and doctorate in clinical psychology." Dr. Jerald F. Dirks received his Bachelor of Arts (philosophy) from Harvard College in 1971, his Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School in 1974, his Master of Arts (clinical child psychology) from the University of Denver in 1976, his Doctor of Psychology (Psy.D.) degree in clinical psychology from the University of Denver in 1978, and his sessions program certificate in Islamic studies from Imam Muhammad ibn Saud Islamic University in 1998. In 1969, he obtained his License to Preach from the United Methodist Church and was ordained into the Christian ministry (deaconate) by the United Methodist Church in 1972. He converted to Islam in 1993 and completed the ‘Umrah and Hajj in 1999. His vocational history includes over five years teaching in American colleges and universities and over 20 years spent in the private practice of psychotherapy. In addition, he has taught at the middle school level at two different private Islamic schools and has served as the psychoeducational consultant at one private Islamic school. Dr. Dirks is the author or co-author of over 60 published articles in the behavioral sciences (primarily in psychosomatic medicine), over 140 published articles on the Arabian horse and its history, and over 220 published articles or formal presentations on Islam, comparative religion, and private Islamic education in America. He has lectured widely on Islam at American universities (Tabor College, University of Kansas, University of Denver, Oklahoma State University, Missouri State University, Wayne State University, University of Michigan, University of Pittsburgh, University of Alabama at Birmingham, and Georgetown University), in American mosques (in Arizona, California, Colorado, Georgia, Illinois, Kansas, Michigan, New York, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, and Virginia), and at regional and national conventions of the major Islamic organizations (ISNA, ICNA, and MAS). In addition, he has been interviewed about Islam by newspapers in California, Colorado, Missouri, and Saudi Arabia and by television stations in Kansas, New York, Texas, Utah, Canada, and the United Arab Emirates. He is the author of four books that explore the commonalities and differences among the three Abrahamic religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism): The Cross and the Crescent, now in its second printing; Abraham, The Friend of God; Understanding Islam--A Guide for the Judaeo-Christian Reader; and The Abrahamic Faiths--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. His fifth book, Muslims in American History--A Forgotten Legacy was published in 2006 and celebrates the centuries-old history of Muslims in America. His sixth book, Letters to My Elders in Islam, was published in 2008. Dr. Dirks has also proofread and/or edited several books for other authors. Dr. Dirks is available for lectures on a variety of topics, for conducting all-day workshops on how to perform Da’wah in America most effectively and on Muslims in American history, for consultation to private Islamic schools and Islamic public relations efforts, and for editing and/or proofing the manuscripts of other authors. |
Anonymous
You remind me of Drew Barrymore in 50 First Dates, where she had some kind of brain disorder that caused her brain to erase it's short term memory every morning…because every time you accuse me of using Dirks or the Ebionites to "debunk the entire Christian faith" and accuse me of telling "everyone to convert to Islam" I tell you that my evidence doesn't do that and isn't intended for that. But then the next morning you wake up again with the same accusations. |
Anonymous
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OP, here's a direct quote from your own post on this thread.
09/11/2014 10:42: "Google books by Dr. Jerald Dirks, former ordained Deacon, Harvard Divinity School graduate and professor. He debunked the whole trinity and divinity concept after locating and researching the world's oldest manuscripts even before the Bible was written." OK, he apparently taught 5 years at some university, but it wasn't Harvard, and we have no clue whether he taught at the university level before or after his conversion. Words matter. Words matter, wherever Dirk's work history took him. Your wording definitely implies Dirks taught at Harvard Divinity School. Come to find out, he's a psychologist. |