Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

A single glass of wine once a week? How do you know this is how much she was drinking? I honestly don't believe she was only drinking a glass a week to have not only FASD but severe FASD like this.

Alcoholics are both excellent at hiding their illness and extremely reluctant to take responsibility for the consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

A single glass of wine once a week? How do you know this is how much she was drinking? I honestly don't believe she was only drinking a glass a week to have not only FASD but severe FASD like this.

Alcoholics are both excellent at hiding their illness and extremely reluctant to take responsibility for the consequences.

Your beliefs in this matter are nothing more than unscientific thoughts swirling around in your head, and are completely irrelevant. It sounds like you may need some alcohol counseling yourself, as you have been extremely reluctant to acknowledge that the scientific community simply does not know what amount of alcohol hurts a fetus.

Please seek professional help for your inability to quit drinking during your pregnancy. There are lots of good resources out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

A single glass of wine once a week? How do you know this is how much she was drinking? I honestly don't believe she was only drinking a glass a week to have not only FASD but severe FASD like this.

Alcoholics are both excellent at hiding their illness and extremely reluctant to take responsibility for the consequences.

Your beliefs in this matter are nothing more than unscientific thoughts swirling around in your head, and are completely irrelevant. It sounds like you may need some alcohol counseling yourself, as you have been extremely reluctant to acknowledge that the scientific community simply does not know what amount of alcohol hurts a fetus.

Please seek professional help for your inability to quit drinking during your pregnancy. There are lots of good resources out there.

My beliefs about alcoholics are a lot more than unscientific thoughts swirling around in my head. I grew up with one. My evaluation of risk based on available science and risk of drinking while pregnancy does not ignore the fact that the scientific community cannot settle on a save level. I understand that fine. I also understand there are very few good studies on this. I understand that many women drank prior to the risks were more understood. I understand I've never met a doctor that genuinely thinks a glass a week is dangerous.

I understand and do not contest anything you are saying about existing science. I have simply come to a different conclusion than you have.

I would be laughed out of an office for suggesting I had an alcohol problem to my OB because of my occasional sips of my husbands beer and rare glass of wine. For me personally its more like once every few weeks at a nice dinner or a wedding or something.

You want to think your friend did nothing wrong. I think your friend has a problem.

[Anonymous]

"We now have new data in the United States telling us that rates of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (F.A.S.D.) are higher than we knew. In 2018, a paper on F.A.S.D. was published in the medical journal JAMA."

"The findings were staggering. The way we are consuming alcohol in pregnancy is resulting in a conservative estimate of 1.1 to 5 percent of children — up to 1 in 20 — with F.A.S.D. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are more prevalent than autism."

"And yet at least 10 percent of pregnant women still drink during pregnancy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/style/drinking-while-pregnant.html

Here is a list of related disorders and secondary conditions that occur commonly with FASD:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/e1395

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"We now have new data in the United States telling us that rates of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (F.A.S.D.) are higher than we knew. In 2018, a paper on F.A.S.D. was published in the medical journal JAMA."

"The findings were staggering. The way we are consuming alcohol in pregnancy is resulting in a conservative estimate of 1.1 to 5 percent of children — up to 1 in 20 — with F.A.S.D. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are more prevalent than autism."

"And yet at least 10 percent of pregnant women still drink during pregnancy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/style/drinking-while-pregnant.html

Here is a list of related disorders and secondary conditions that occur commonly with FASD:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/e1395

Links to an NYT opinion article but not to your JAMA article? Ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

I find your story about your friend unbelievable. In other countries, women regularly have a glass of wine while pregnant. Yet there is no evidence of it causing FAS. You’d think doctors would be publishing all sorts of case studies about this phenomenon. The only evidence of effect I’ve seen is a study about barely detectable facial changes. https://www.newscientist.com/article/2133639-drinking-small-amounts-while-pregnant-may-affect-the-babys-face/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"We now have new data in the United States telling us that rates of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (F.A.S.D.) are higher than we knew. In 2018, a paper on F.A.S.D. was published in the medical journal JAMA."

"The findings were staggering. The way we are consuming alcohol in pregnancy is resulting in a conservative estimate of 1.1 to 5 percent of children — up to 1 in 20 — with F.A.S.D. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are more prevalent than autism."

"And yet at least 10 percent of pregnant women still drink during pregnancy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/style/drinking-while-pregnant.html

Here is a list of related disorders and secondary conditions that occur commonly with FASD:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/e1395

Links to an NYT opinion article but not to your JAMA article? Ok.

I found it for you and am reading it now:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2671465

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"We now have new data in the United States telling us that rates of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (F.A.S.D.) are higher than we knew. In 2018, a paper on F.A.S.D. was published in the medical journal JAMA."

"The findings were staggering. The way we are consuming alcohol in pregnancy is resulting in a conservative estimate of 1.1 to 5 percent of children — up to 1 in 20 — with F.A.S.D. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are more prevalent than autism."

"And yet at least 10 percent of pregnant women still drink during pregnancy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/style/drinking-while-pregnant.html

Here is a list of related disorders and secondary conditions that occur commonly with FASD:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/e1395

Links to an NYT opinion article but not to your JAMA article? Ok.

Oh, I'm sorry, is your google finger not working? Here it is:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2671465

And yeah, I'll take the opinion of a practicing OBGYN over the uneducated opinions in this thread any day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, PP. A sip or two before you know you are pregnant or at a wedding is one thing, but the OP and crazies like you are obviously looking for studies to make you feel better about drinking regularly. Admit it. I didn't drink during my four pregnancies because the health of my babies was more important than my own needs....it's called being responsible. I know two couples who adopted babies with FAS, and they are praying that the kids develop normally. So far, so good....just mild delays...but they are still too young to tell what ultimate delays/disabilities they will have. And, I'm a policy analyst who has done a great deal of work related to child welfare, so I've read the studies, sat through trainings, and met older teens/young adults with FAS. Seriously, ladies....just stay off the sauce during pregnancy. If you can't....or don't want to...then you are simply selfish.

I gotta say... I completely agree with this.

I have a nephew with FAE. Kid's mom was a woman with depression who didn't believe in mental health treatment and a chronic alcoholic, who was so intoxicated when she went into labor the hospital made some attempts to halt labor. That is a far, far cry from an occasional drink during pregnancy, especially when you consider that for millenia fermented beverages were what many cultures often drank. You're displaying self-righteousness over a position that is not and cannot be scientifically confirmed given ethical constraints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"We now have new data in the United States telling us that rates of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (F.A.S.D.) are higher than we knew. In 2018, a paper on F.A.S.D. was published in the medical journal JAMA."

"The findings were staggering. The way we are consuming alcohol in pregnancy is resulting in a conservative estimate of 1.1 to 5 percent of children — up to 1 in 20 — with F.A.S.D. According to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are more prevalent than autism."

"And yet at least 10 percent of pregnant women still drink during pregnancy."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/05/style/drinking-while-pregnant.html

Here is a list of related disorders and secondary conditions that occur commonly with FASD:

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/136/5/e1395

Links to an NYT opinion article but not to your JAMA article? Ok.

Oh, I'm sorry, is your google finger not working? Here it is:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2671465

And yeah, I'll take the opinion of a practicing OBGYN over the uneducated opinions in this thread any day.

The study does refer to a "pre-defined cutoff" value for alcohol consumption with the cutoff specifics not available in the linked article, the confidence intervals in the estimates are also high. I note that the article indicates the estimates of prevalence are conservative as well as noting specific weakness of the study (of course, there are always weaknesses)--I'm just not sure you can relate information like the JAMA study to OP's question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Geez, PP. A sip or two before you know you are pregnant or at a wedding is one thing, but the OP and crazies like you are obviously looking for studies to make you feel better about drinking regularly. Admit it. I didn't drink during my four pregnancies because the health of my babies was more important than my own needs....it's called being responsible. I know two couples who adopted babies with FAS, and they are praying that the kids develop normally. So far, so good....just mild delays...but they are still too young to tell what ultimate delays/disabilities they will have. And, I'm a policy analyst who has done a great deal of work related to child welfare, so I've read the studies, sat through trainings, and met older teens/young adults with FAS. Seriously, ladies....just stay off the sauce during pregnancy. If you can't....or don't want to...then you are simply selfish.

I gotta say... I completely agree with this.

I have a nephew with FAE. Kid's mom was a woman with depression who didn't believe in mental health treatment and a chronic alcoholic, who was so intoxicated when she went into labor the hospital made some attempts to halt labor. That is a far, far cry from an occasional drink during pregnancy, especially when you consider that for millenia fermented beverages were what many cultures often drank. You're displaying self-righteousness over a position that is not and cannot be scientifically confirmed given ethical constraints.

You know what else was common over millenia? Child mortality. Killing or abandoning children with birth defects. Short life spans. Your argument is absurd.

It's dangerously ignorant to believe humans have evolved to be able to process alcohol without harm. Alcohol causes birth defects, developmental delays and disorders, and numerous health problems in humans including disease and death. We have definitive proof that alcohol causes these things, we just don't know the levels of exposure that will affect each individual. Just because today's culture has normalized drinking does not mean it's benign at some arbitrary level of consumption.

[Anonymous]

I think there might be just one poster here who keeps adamantly insisting that every woman’s alcohol processing is different and so drinking any amount of alcohol is unsafe. I’m just not buying it. I think by this time in life, you’d know if you’re someone super unique and special who gets absolutely hammered from one glass of wine over dinner. And I’ve yet to see any evidence that some placentas just like suck all the minute amounts of alcohol in your blood stream tricking in over the course of an hour or two and manage to inject it straight into the fetus. Show me the proof of these outlier women and placentas. Show me the proof that some woman drank a couple glasses of wine during her pregnancy and her baby got a FASD. Otherwise, you just seem like a crazy person on a fervent mission to get everyone to believe your assertions that have zero basis in reality. And I say that as someone who didn’t have any alcohol during her pregnancies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think there might be just one poster here who keeps adamantly insisting that every woman’s alcohol processing is different and so drinking any amount of alcohol is unsafe. I’m just not buying it. I think by this time in life, you’d know if you’re someone super unique and special who gets absolutely hammered from one glass of wine over dinner. And I’ve yet to see any evidence that some placentas just like suck all the minute amounts of alcohol in your blood stream tricking in over the course of an hour or two and manage to inject it straight into the fetus. Show me the proof of these outlier women and placentas. Show me the proof that some woman drank a couple glasses of wine during her pregnancy and her baby got a FASD. Otherwise, you just seem like a crazy person on a fervent mission to get everyone to believe your assertions that have zero basis in reality. And I say that as someone who didn’t have any alcohol during her pregnancies.

I'm the PP who posted the JAMA article and another response - I just joined the thread today, so I'm not the only one posting. I also made none of those assertions. Your attempt to flame me is puzzling and I don't think you have a very good understanding of the science. I don't really either, but I can grasp that alcohol is a toxin in the human body and that a lot of kids end up having FASD. I'm sure anyone who has a kid with developmental delays, behavior disorders etc would tell you whatever benefit you get from drinking is not worth even the tiny chance of it causing your child harm. People with addictions are different - they can't always choose, but the rest of us can. In fact, it's one of the easiest parenting decisions of all time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

Unless you are with that woman 24/7, you don't actually know how much she drank. I am married to an alcoholic, and I know first hand how good they can be about hiding their drinking.