Is there any objective source of information on light drinking during pregnancy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there might be just one poster here who keeps adamantly insisting that every woman’s alcohol processing is different and so drinking any amount of alcohol is unsafe. I’m just not buying it. I think by this time in life, you’d know if you’re someone super unique and special who gets absolutely hammered from one glass of wine over dinner. And I’ve yet to see any evidence that some placentas just like suck all the minute amounts of alcohol in your blood stream tricking in over the course of an hour or two and manage to inject it straight into the fetus. Show me the proof of these outlier women and placentas. Show me the proof that some woman drank a couple glasses of wine during her pregnancy and her baby got a FASD. Otherwise, you just seem like a crazy person on a fervent mission to get everyone to believe your assertions that have zero basis in reality. And I say that as someone who didn’t have any alcohol during her pregnancies.

I'm the PP who posted the JAMA article and another response - I just joined the thread today, so I'm not the only one posting. I also made none of those assertions. Your attempt to flame me is puzzling and I don't think you have a very good understanding of the science. I don't really either, but I can grasp that alcohol is a toxin in the human body and that a lot of kids end up having FASD. I'm sure anyone who has a kid with developmental delays, behavior disorders etc would tell you whatever benefit you get from drinking is not worth even the tiny chance of it causing your child harm. People with addictions are different - they can't always choose, but the rest of us can. In fact, it's one of the easiest parenting decisions of all time.

Weird that you're taking this as a personal flaming if you're the only person here. Are you the thin lady buying your organic strawberries and spinach at whole foods? I didn't like her.

IMO the JAMA article doesn't really evaluate the questions we'res talking about. The study cites a large polling of pregnant women that said 3.1% reported at least one binge drinking episode in the previous 30 days. 10.2% reported some recent drinking. Of the 6000 or so kids surveyed in the study, only 131 kids had actual diagnosable FASD or PFASD. The rest of the kids (91 or them, so 41% of the kids they are giving a positive diagnosis on) were judged on having neurodevelopmental disorders connected to alcohol exposure. The study itself cites this as a weakness.

...the criteria defining neurobehavioral impairment in this study were selected to balance sensitivity for deficits that have functional consequences with specificity for the characteristic neurobehavioral domains known to be affected by prenatal alcohol exposure. The objective was to produce prevalence estimates across multiple communities using a one-time evaluation to identify children with measurable deficits consistent with prenatal alcohol exposure. However, in the absence of a definitive biomarker for fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, it is impossible to know what proportion of these deficits were caused by fetal alcohol exposure. Therefore, prevalence estimates, particularly for alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder, could be overestimated.

Also, the study itself has a standard of meaningful alcohol exposure in pregnancy which would assume some type of agreement on the part of researchers that while there is no KNOWN safe limit, there are some things widely assumed to be safe. Like a very occasional glass of wine. As defined in their appendix:

IV. Alcohol Consumption Criteria
One or more of the following conditions must be met to constitute documented prenatal alcohol
exposure during pregnancy. The information must be obtained from the biological mother or a
reliable collateral source (eg, family member, social service agency, or medical record)
A. 6 or more drinks per week for 2 or more weeks during pregnancy
B. 3 or more drinks per occasion on 2 or more occasions during pregnancy
C. Documentation of alcohol-related social or legal problems in proximity to (prior to or during)
the index pregnancy (eg, history of multiple citations for driving while intoxicated or history of
treatment for an alcohol-related condition)

So you didn't like her when you thought she was obese and eating junk food while pregnant, and you don't like her now for being thin and health-conscious? You sound like a real peach - a GMO peach, that is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

holy shit, what a horrible piece of garbage this woman is

irresponsibly drank
gave her child FAS
blamed her doctor

go to hell lady

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, there really are such different ways of approaching risk. I like understanding the actual risks of doing something even if it's not something I really value doing - for example, i used to buy bagged romaine and salad greens every single week, and lunchmeat never, it's just not a part of my regular diet or a big treat for me. As a pregnant woman it's pretty important for me to know that listeria finds on lettuce and greens have been both widespread and recent, so I've changed my weekly shopping and eating habits for a few months, while incidence from lunchmeat is really rare these days, so I was at a work event last week where deli sandwiches were the only lunch option and I ate a half. That was a week ago, so far no listeria.

Yes, i could have skipped it and gotten food later, I choose other options whenever I have them and i dont have a lunchmeat addiction problem, but I honestly do think it's a risk evaluation question, not a straight up black and white moral virtue problem. I also think people who have a risk evaluation approach to alcohol here are being treated as though they're moral failures and purity is not the appropriate lens here.

I don’t think they’re moral failures. But I have seen FAS first hand, resulting from a woman who didn’t drink that much during her pregnancy. I am all for women making their own choices with their lives and bodies, but SOMETIMES it’s reasonable to expect women to put their babies first. It’s only 9 months.

Please elaborate. I would guess that you just don't know how much this woman drank.

Every week or so. Same amount as you are describing as you drink in pregnancy. The FAS symptoms in her child are classic. Smooth upper lip, eye spacing, etc. The child also suffered from severe social impairment and epileptic seizures. The woman sued her doctor for telling her that the amount she was drinking during pregnancy was unharmful and under control. Not sure what the results of that case were, but the effects of their decisions were clear and heartbreaking.

holy shit, what a horrible piece of garbage this woman is

irresponsibly drank
gave her child FAS
blamed her doctor

go to hell lady

But the thing is, her doc was telling her she was being responsible so she probably didn’t think she was doing anything wrong. This is why a lot of people take issue with doctors saying a few glasses should be fine.

[Anonymous]

Like I said earlier in the thread, I don't get what "buzz" is worth the potential life-altering consequences when you can't fully understand all the risks

[Anonymous]

"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For these ladies that want to drink nightly/regularly during pregnancy I guess you plan to drink regularly as a Mom?

My siblings and I were all toddlers with 1 alcoholic parent.
I would not wish that experience on anyone.

If you can't abstain for 7 months during pregnancy perhaps a
talk to a Doctor is in order. There is immediate help
out there for pregnant women who can't stop drinking.

I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

Im also very sorry but do each to point out that I don't think any person is saying nightly drinking is what we're talking about here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there might be just one poster here who keeps adamantly insisting that every woman’s alcohol processing is different and so drinking any amount of alcohol is unsafe. I’m just not buying it. I think by this time in life, you’d know if you’re someone super unique and special who gets absolutely hammered from one glass of wine over dinner. And I’ve yet to see any evidence that some placentas just like suck all the minute amounts of alcohol in your blood stream tricking in over the course of an hour or two and manage to inject it straight into the fetus. Show me the proof of these outlier women and placentas. Show me the proof that some woman drank a couple glasses of wine during her pregnancy and her baby got a FASD. Otherwise, you just seem like a crazy person on a fervent mission to get everyone to believe your assertions that have zero basis in reality. And I say that as someone who didn’t have any alcohol during her pregnancies.

I'm the PP who posted the JAMA article and another response - I just joined the thread today, so I'm not the only one posting. I also made none of those assertions. Your attempt to flame me is puzzling and I don't think you have a very good understanding of the science. I don't really either, but I can grasp that alcohol is a toxin in the human body and that a lot of kids end up having FASD. I'm sure anyone who has a kid with developmental delays, behavior disorders etc would tell you whatever benefit you get from drinking is not worth even the tiny chance of it causing your child harm. People with addictions are different - they can't always choose, but the rest of us can. In fact, it's one of the easiest parenting decisions of all time.

Weird that you're taking this as a personal flaming if you're the only person here. Are you the thin lady buying your organic strawberries and spinach at whole foods? I didn't like her.

IMO the JAMA article doesn't really evaluate the questions we'res talking about. The study cites a large polling of pregnant women that said 3.1% reported at least one binge drinking episode in the previous 30 days. 10.2% reported some recent drinking. Of the 6000 or so kids surveyed in the study, only 131 kids had actual diagnosable FASD or PFASD. The rest of the kids (91 or them, so 41% of the kids they are giving a positive diagnosis on) were judged on having neurodevelopmental disorders connected to alcohol exposure. The study itself cites this as a weakness.

...the criteria defining neurobehavioral impairment in this study were selected to balance sensitivity for deficits that have functional consequences with specificity for the characteristic neurobehavioral domains known to be affected by prenatal alcohol exposure. The objective was to produce prevalence estimates across multiple communities using a one-time evaluation to identify children with measurable deficits consistent with prenatal alcohol exposure. However, in the absence of a definitive biomarker for fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, it is impossible to know what proportion of these deficits were caused by fetal alcohol exposure. Therefore, prevalence estimates, particularly for alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder, could be overestimated.

Also, the study itself has a standard of meaningful alcohol exposure in pregnancy which would assume some type of agreement on the part of researchers that while there is no KNOWN safe limit, there are some things widely assumed to be safe. Like a very occasional glass of wine. As defined in their appendix:

IV. Alcohol Consumption Criteria
One or more of the following conditions must be met to constitute documented prenatal alcohol
exposure during pregnancy. The information must be obtained from the biological mother or a
reliable collateral source (eg, family member, social service agency, or medical record)
A. 6 or more drinks per week for 2 or more weeks during pregnancy
B. 3 or more drinks per occasion on 2 or more occasions during pregnancy
C. Documentation of alcohol-related social or legal problems in proximity to (prior to or during)
the index pregnancy (eg, history of multiple citations for driving while intoxicated or history of
treatment for an alcohol-related condition)

So you didn't like her when you thought she was obese and eating junk food while pregnant, and you don't like her now for being thin and health-conscious? You sound like a real peach - a GMO peach, that is.

What? Im not the poster who called her obese. Im the poster she called a lush. It was simply a notable detail to identify her with. I didn't like her because I thought she was rude and histrionic.

There's no scientific evidence that gmo goods are bad for you either btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

Seriously who gets buzzed off half a glass/glass of wine?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Under reporting consumption of alcoholic drinks is very common in male and female alcoholics. Most likely the prior poster who reported
friend with FAS child whose Mom said she drank once a week or so was lying. The under reporting Mom was probably an active, hard core, alcoholic during pregnancy.
It is possible Mom was hard core bingeing during the first 8 weeks.
It is also hard to believe that Mom's doctor said that any amount she could drink was okay. Most doctors discourage drinking while pregnant since
under reporting is so prevalent in alcoholics.

My boyfriends son (adopted) has FAS. He is an adult. I don't think he will ever work. Why risk it.

There is a lot of judgement in our society about FAS children. I suspect a lot of children who have learning disabilities actually are FAS children.

Under that logic, then all of you "every once in a while" pregnancy drinkers are also drinking a hell of a lot more than you're reporting here, thus putting your poor babies at risk for lifelong health challenges.

Also, be sure to cite your sources about under reporting

Yeah that’s not how logic works. Alcoholics underreport drinking doesn’t mean everyone who reports drinking is an alcoholic who underreports. But thanks for demonstrating clearly you’re complete inability to grasp basic logic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there might be just one poster here who keeps adamantly insisting that every woman’s alcohol processing is different and so drinking any amount of alcohol is unsafe. I’m just not buying it. I think by this time in life, you’d know if you’re someone super unique and special who gets absolutely hammered from one glass of wine over dinner. And I’ve yet to see any evidence that some placentas just like suck all the minute amounts of alcohol in your blood stream tricking in over the course of an hour or two and manage to inject it straight into the fetus. Show me the proof of these outlier women and placentas. Show me the proof that some woman drank a couple glasses of wine during her pregnancy and her baby got a FASD. Otherwise, you just seem like a crazy person on a fervent mission to get everyone to believe your assertions that have zero basis in reality. And I say that as someone who didn’t have any alcohol during her pregnancies.

I'm the PP who posted the JAMA article and another response - I just joined the thread today, so I'm not the only one posting. I also made none of those assertions. Your attempt to flame me is puzzling and I don't think you have a very good understanding of the science. I don't really either, but I can grasp that alcohol is a toxin in the human body and that a lot of kids end up having FASD. I'm sure anyone who has a kid with developmental delays, behavior disorders etc would tell you whatever benefit you get from drinking is not worth even the tiny chance of it causing your child harm. People with addictions are different - they can't always choose, but the rest of us can. In fact, it's one of the easiest parenting decisions of all time.

Weird that you're taking this as a personal flaming if you're the only person here. Are you the thin lady buying your organic strawberries and spinach at whole foods? I didn't like her.

IMO the JAMA article doesn't really evaluate the questions we'res talking about. The study cites a large polling of pregnant women that said 3.1% reported at least one binge drinking episode in the previous 30 days. 10.2% reported some recent drinking. Of the 6000 or so kids surveyed in the study, only 131 kids had actual diagnosable FASD or PFASD. The rest of the kids (91 or them, so 41% of the kids they are giving a positive diagnosis on) were judged on having neurodevelopmental disorders connected to alcohol exposure. The study itself cites this as a weakness.

...the criteria defining neurobehavioral impairment in this study were selected to balance sensitivity for deficits that have functional consequences with specificity for the characteristic neurobehavioral domains known to be affected by prenatal alcohol exposure. The objective was to produce prevalence estimates across multiple communities using a one-time evaluation to identify children with measurable deficits consistent with prenatal alcohol exposure. However, in the absence of a definitive biomarker for fetal alcohol spectrum disorders, it is impossible to know what proportion of these deficits were caused by fetal alcohol exposure. Therefore, prevalence estimates, particularly for alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder, could be overestimated.

Also, the study itself has a standard of meaningful alcohol exposure in pregnancy which would assume some type of agreement on the part of researchers that while there is no KNOWN safe limit, there are some things widely assumed to be safe. Like a very occasional glass of wine. As defined in their appendix:

IV. Alcohol Consumption Criteria
One or more of the following conditions must be met to constitute documented prenatal alcohol
exposure during pregnancy. The information must be obtained from the biological mother or a
reliable collateral source (eg, family member, social service agency, or medical record)
A. 6 or more drinks per week for 2 or more weeks during pregnancy
B. 3 or more drinks per occasion on 2 or more occasions during pregnancy
C. Documentation of alcohol-related social or legal problems in proximity to (prior to or during)
the index pregnancy (eg, history of multiple citations for driving while intoxicated or history of
treatment for an alcohol-related condition)

So you didn't like her when you thought she was obese and eating junk food while pregnant, and you don't like her now for being thin and health-conscious? You sound like a real peach - a GMO peach, that is.

What? Im not the poster who called her obese. Im the poster she called a lush. It was simply a notable detail to identify her with. I didn't like her because I thought she was rude and histrionic.

There's no scientific evidence that gmo goods are bad for you either btw.

And with your “GMOs are good for you” attitude, I’m out. Clearly nothing in this world is dangerous to you. I’ll give you the last word.

[Anonymous]

GMOs are fine
Alcohol during pregnancy is not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

I hope this is also the kind of calculation you do if you are considering eating a piece of melon (Listeria recalls last year) or getting in a car for a discretionary trip (e.g. visiting a friend, not going to work). You or your baby could DIE, so don't do it!

That is not risk evaluation, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

I hope this is also the kind of calculation you do if you are considering eating a piece of melon (Listeria recalls last year) or getting in a car for a discretionary trip (e.g. visiting a friend, not going to work). You or your baby could DIE, so don't do it!

That is not risk evaluation, though.

To be fair the odds of any given melon being contaminated are pretty low. And I am not sure you can realistically reduce your risk of catching listeriosis to 0.

The chance of an alcoholic drinks containing alcohol is 100%. And we
know you can reduce the risk of FASD to 0 by not drinking alcohol. Yes, there's no evidence that drinking a glass of wine with a meal can cause FASD, but it is fair to say that not drinking alcohol is one of the easier ways to prevent harm to a fetus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

I hope this is also the kind of calculation you do if you are considering eating a piece of melon (Listeria recalls last year) or getting in a car for a discretionary trip (e.g. visiting a friend, not going to work). You or your baby could DIE, so don't do it!

That is not risk evaluation, though.

To be fair the odds of any given melon being contaminated are pretty low. And I am not sure you can realistically reduce your risk of catching listeriosis to 0.

The chance of an alcoholic drinks containing alcohol is 100%. And we
know you can reduce the risk of FASD to 0 by not drinking alcohol. Yes, there's no evidence that drinking a glass of wine with a meal can cause FASD, but it is fair to say that not drinking alcohol is one of the easier ways to prevent harm to a fetus.

You totally can reduce your risk of contracting listeriosis to 0. Just microwave everything single thing you eat to an internal temperature of 165 degrees. If you truly love your child and have self control, you’ll do that for 9 months. If you’re having trouble giving up eating cold or room temperature food, there’s help and resources for women like you. Talk to your doctor about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"a risk evaluation approach"

let's get out our calculators.. here we type in how sweet my buzz is going to be.. here we type in the risk that I ruin my child's life.....

great, 91%! bottoms up!

I hope this is also the kind of calculation you do if you are considering eating a piece of melon (Listeria recalls last year) or getting in a car for a discretionary trip (e.g. visiting a friend, not going to work). You or your baby could DIE, so don't do it!

That is not risk evaluation, though.

To be fair the odds of any given melon being contaminated are pretty low. And I am not sure you can realistically reduce your risk of catching listeriosis to 0.

The chance of an alcoholic drinks containing alcohol is 100%. And we
know you can reduce the risk of FASD to 0 by not drinking alcohol. Yes, there's no evidence that drinking a glass of wine with a meal can cause FASD, but it is fair to say that not drinking alcohol is one of the easier ways to prevent harm to a fetus.

You totally can reduce your risk of contracting listeriosis to 0. Just microwave everything single thing you eat to an internal temperature of 165 degrees. If you truly love your child and have self control, you’ll do that for 9 months. If you’re having trouble giving up eating cold or room temperature food, there’s help and resources for women like you. Talk to your doctor about it.

As you know, that is not very practical. Just like not riding in a car for 9 months. That is why I said "realistically". It is, however, pretty easy not to drink alcohol for 9 months. I actually don't think it's terrible for most pregnant women to have a glass of wine with food now and then. But many people, myself included, like alcohol because of the buzz and are not in the habit of drinking slow enough. And for me, I feel hungover from one drink even if I did not feel a buzz, so I did not drink at all during pregnancy because if I feel that bad, it must be terrible for the baby.

I don't think comparing drinking alcohol to avoiding car accidents and food with listeria makes much sense.