Princeton has 8 suicides in 3 years

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Were you a STEM major? Bc this is extremely far from my Pton experience, my dh's Pton experience, any of my friends, or my current Pton dd's experience. If anything it was less work than high school for many of us. Granted we were all lib arts majors, but we were also athletes, involved in clubs etc and it was not the soul crushing grind you are describing. Not trying to negate your experience, just offering a different perspective on this thread.

Very much STEM. I'd majored in computer science and focused mainly on the more mathematical elements. I suspect it could be the case that the culture I'm describing could have more to do with "STEM culture" than "Princeton culture" - although I stand by my belief that Princeton culturally tends to be very focused on hierarchy.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know much about Princeton engineering but I do know there are lots of kids there for premed, math, physics, economics, etc. . .all of whom are dealing with the C curve.

I suspect the experience of Princeton varies meaningfully by major and professional aspirations. I also suspect that holding constant major and professional aspirations, it's a much more challenging environment than peers like Harvard, Yale, or Stanford(but probably a much more forgiving environment than other peers like MIT, CalTech, and UChicago).

Possibly the current mental health crisis at the school may be driven by changes in professional aspirations or expectations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child is at Princeton, and you all are scaring me. I strongly hope that med/law/grad schools are aware of the grade deflation at the school and take that into consideration.

I wouldn’t count on it. Some Princeton grads don’t get admitted to med school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Well you take everyone from the Top 5% in HS and put them at Princeton. If the range of scores on an exam are 30-50% does that really mean the kids below 40% get a B- or lower? I'd argue the professors should teach a bit better. It is frustrating to study for a StEM class and take the exam and feel like you have no clue what you are doing and I say this as a T10 graduate with 2 majors in 5 years, it was 6.5 years worth of coursework, who graduated with a 3.9 and CS/Engineering was one of the majors.

So yes, if the range is 5-50, then the lower end did not learn the material, but 30-50 (and a mean of 38 lets say), tells me 38 should be a B and the 30 might be a C+/B-. Similarly, ifprof teaches well, and the scores are 88-100%, then the lowest grade should be a B+/A-, not a C
The students learned the material, did well and it's Okay to give all A/A- in a course. The purpose of courses is to learn the material, and if everyone does that well, then A's should be given. Remember, you no longer have the "lower level" of kids that are at many HSs. You just took the All A's/ All AP courses, advanced in math and science and LA/History kids and put them together. They should logically all do well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Except at a big state school your gen Chem class isn’t comprised of all valedictorians…..you can’t compare a curve at Princeton to one at Alabama

+1000 You already have Top Students, who logically could all do well in a class.
And logically, if the scores range from 40-95%, but the median is 50%, then there are a few outliers at the top, but 50% should be B/B+ work easily. And the 40 might be B-/C+. The fact a few outliers managed a much higher score should not penalize the bulk of the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Well you take everyone from the Top 5% in HS and put them at Princeton. If the range of scores on an exam are 30-50% does that really mean the kids below 40% get a B- or lower? I'd argue the professors should teach a bit better. It is frustrating to study for a StEM class and take the exam and feel like you have no clue what you are doing and I say this as a T10 graduate with 2 majors in 5 years, it was 6.5 years worth of coursework, who graduated with a 3.9 and CS/Engineering was one of the majors.

So yes, if the range is 5-50, then the lower end did not learn the material, but 30-50 (and a mean of 38 lets say), tells me 38 should be a B and the 30 might be a C+/B-. Similarly, ifprof teaches well, and the scores are 88-100%, then the lowest grade should be a B+/A-, not a C
The students learned the material, did well and it's Okay to give all A/A- in a course. The purpose of courses is to learn the material, and if everyone does that well, then A's should be given. Remember, you no longer have the "lower level" of kids that are at many HSs. You just took the All A's/ All AP courses, advanced in math and science and LA/History kids and put them together. They should logically all do well

yeah. The Bell Curve demands that professors only give a limited number of A's in a module and a course, regardless of how well students do. Hence, many A-deserving students will be given a B or even a lower grade for the bell shape to be achieved.

A lot of teachers stick to this type of grading. I see it at my kid's private HS. Then, there are some --which happened at our public MS--everyone got an A but not everyone really had a grasp of the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Except at a big state school your gen Chem class isn’t comprised of all valedictorians…..you can’t compare a curve at Princeton to one at Alabama

+1000 You already have Top Students, who logically could all do well in a class.
And logically, if the scores range from 40-95%, but the median is 50%, then there are a few outliers at the top, but 50% should be B/B+ work easily. And the 40 might be B-/C+. The fact a few outliers managed a much higher score should not penalize the bulk of the class.

I’m hearing about medians closer to 35 than 50 percent.

[Anonymous]

DC recent Princeton BSE computer science grad. Very competitive and significantly more rigorous than friends in other majors.
Princeton can be as hard or “easy” depending on major or ECs. DC also had a very time consuming EC and chose a harder path, it was very tough at times and would not be a good fit for some. Grateful for their education, but it was not a fun or easy academic experience. But this would be the case for a STEM major at many top schools. Made some great friends and got a great job.

[Anonymous]

Not sure this is a new phenomenon. My cousin committed suicide at Princeton back in the 70's. Maybe it was just more covered up in those days.

[Anonymous]

Suicides are not even tracked or reported for over half of colleges and universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Well you take everyone from the Top 5% in HS and put them at Princeton. If the range of scores on an exam are 30-50% does that really mean the kids below 40% get a B- or lower? I'd argue the professors should teach a bit better. It is frustrating to study for a StEM class and take the exam and feel like you have no clue what you are doing and I say this as a T10 graduate with 2 majors in 5 years, it was 6.5 years worth of coursework, who graduated with a 3.9 and CS/Engineering was one of the majors.

So yes, if the range is 5-50, then the lower end did not learn the material, but 30-50 (and a mean of 38 lets say), tells me 38 should be a B and the 30 might be a C+/B-. Similarly, ifprof teaches well, and the scores are 88-100%, then the lowest grade should be a B+/A-, not a C
The students learned the material, did well and it's Okay to give all A/A- in a course. The purpose of courses is to learn the material, and if everyone does that well, then A's should be given. Remember, you no longer have the "lower level" of kids that are at many HSs. You just took the All A's/ All AP courses, advanced in math and science and LA/History kids and put them together. They should logically all do well

yeah. The Bell Curve demands that professors only give a limited number of A's in a module and a course, regardless of how well students do. Hence, many A-deserving students will be given a B or even a lower grade for the bell shape to be achieved.

A lot of teachers stick to this type of grading. I see it at my kid's private HS. Then, there are some --which happened at our public MS--everyone got an A but not everyone really had a grasp of the material.

A true Bell Curve at the college level is a bit ridiculous, IMO, especially at a T50 college (ie where most kids were A/A- students overall in HS. If everyone learns the material they should all get As and Bs, with most getting A/A-

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Grade deflation at Princeton makes it worse than other places

Except they have grade inflation just like other places.

[Anonymous]

Somehow I'm not finding it shocking to hear that a BSE in Electrical Engineering or Computer Science from Princeton is a heavier lift and perhaps more stressful than majoring in Art History at Brown or Yale.

[Anonymous]

Where is the proof that there have been 8 suicides in 3 years?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, they happen at most schools. The number is sad but not shocking.

The NY Times recently did a Sunday magazine story about Worcester Polytechnic Institute, and a rash of suicides. It was so sad. In my personal opinion, if we could get this generation off of their phones -- off of Tick Tok and other social media -- their mental health would noticeably improve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/22/magazine/worcester-polytechnic-institute-suicides.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where is the proof that there have been 8 suicides in 3 years?

It was documented in the Princeton campus paper and elsewhere