Princeton has 8 suicides in 3 years

[Anonymous]

My child has friends who are current freshman at Princeton. Class average grades in chemistry and calculus are well below 50 percent on tests. Yes, it is later curved but lots of kids get Cs.

Why deal with this when the other Ivies have massive grade inflation?

[Anonymous]

I'm a Princeton alum as well but I differ somewhat from the previous poster. When I attended there was a strong sense of "separating the wheat from the chaff" in a way that I suspect differs from most peer schools. I think this is most concretely epitomized by grade deflation and also by the hierarchy of eating clubs and extracurricular activities on campus. In general, hierarchy was inescapably both academically and socially. Maybe this is true at most elite schools, but I'd never experienced hierarchy like that before Princeton and honestly haven't experienced it at any time in my adult life since. Comparing notes against colleagues who attended peer schools, I tend to think that Princeton's focus on hierarchy is uniquely intense.

I believe that grade deflation was just a manifestation of the school's culture of hierarchy. At least academically, there's a very strong sense of meritocracy - which depending on perspective is a good thing. However, it often comes along with a sort of Puritanism on the part of administration and faculty where academic achievement is presented as the end all be all of life and as being "moral." In some way, it makes sense since the institution is the closest I know of to being a true "ivory tower." Most peer institutions are strongly influenced by professional schools and ties to industry, whereas Princeton exists in relative isolation from the rest of the world. It is a much more "pure" version of academia. I think this is excellent for students who intend on entering academia but inappropriate for most others.

During my time at Princeton, I couldn't help but feel that the grade deflation policy arose from some sense of being high and mighty or "holier than thou." There was a sense that Princeton needed to deflate grades to preserve its purity. A clear pecking order among students needed to be strictly enforced in order for administration to feel they were upholding their moral obligations. I think this manifests in other core elements of the Princeton such as the Honor Committee, which is essentially a tribunal of overzealous pre-law students who enforce Princeton's sometimes draconian academic codes.

Unfortunately, the hierarchy of extracurricular activities and eating clubs also meant there wasn't much social escape from the pressures and academic culture. Additionally the relative geographic isolation made it difficult to find an escape outside of the college. During my time there I at least personally felt trapped and am glad that college is now in the distant past. I think that the campus is beautiful and the teaching quality is exceptional. However, the culture(from the top down) is deeply unhealthy. My time at Princeton crushed my confidence in my early twenties and I think that the grade deflation policy had meaningful professional consequences in my early career. I've since built a successful career but I don't credit Princeton for it in the slightest. I am actively discouraging my own children from applying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a Princeton alum as well but I differ somewhat from the previous poster. When I attended there was a strong sense of "separating the wheat from the chaff" in a way that I suspect differs from most peer schools. I think this is most concretely epitomized by grade deflation and also by the hierarchy of eating clubs and extracurricular activities on campus. In general, hierarchy was inescapably both academically and socially. Maybe this is true at most elite schools, but I'd never experienced hierarchy like that before Princeton and honestly haven't experienced it at any time in my adult life since. Comparing notes against colleagues who attended peer schools, I tend to think that Princeton's focus on hierarchy is uniquely intense.

I believe that grade deflation was just a manifestation of the school's culture of hierarchy. At least academically, there's a very strong sense of meritocracy - which depending on perspective is a good thing. However, it often comes along with a sort of Puritanism on the part of administration and faculty where academic achievement is presented as the end all be all of life and as being "moral." In some way, it makes sense since the institution is the closest I know of to being a true "ivory tower." Most peer institutions are strongly influenced by professional schools and ties to industry, whereas Princeton exists in relative isolation from the rest of the world. It is a much more "pure" version of academia. I think this is excellent for students who intend on entering academia but inappropriate for most others.

During my time at Princeton, I couldn't help but feel that the grade deflation policy arose from some sense of being high and mighty or "holier than thou." There was a sense that Princeton needed to deflate grades to preserve its purity. A clear pecking order among students needed to be strictly enforced in order for administration to feel they were upholding their moral obligations. I think this manifests in other core elements of the Princeton such as the Honor Committee, which is essentially a tribunal of overzealous pre-law students who enforce Princeton's sometimes draconian academic codes.

Unfortunately, the hierarchy of extracurricular activities and eating clubs also meant there wasn't much social escape from the pressures and academic culture. Additionally the relative geographic isolation made it difficult to find an escape outside of the college. During my time there I at least personally felt trapped and am glad that college is now in the distant past. I think that the campus is beautiful and the teaching quality is exceptional. However, the culture(from the top down) is deeply unhealthy. My time at Princeton crushed my confidence in my early twenties and I think that the grade deflation policy had meaningful professional consequences in my early career. I've since built a successful career but I don't credit Princeton for it in the slightest. I am actively discouraging my own children from applying.

This makes sense. Do you think the TO policies have let in students who can't do the work which would cause them to be more stressed out?

[Anonymous]

The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This makes sense. Do you think the TO policies have let in students who can't do the work which would cause them to be more stressed out?

I had a relatively elite educational background going into Princeton but still found it extremely difficult when I attended. In my experience, even strong students were very stressed. Personally, I think it has more to do with the institution itself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Except at a big state school your gen Chem class isn’t comprised of all valedictorians…..you can’t compare a curve at Princeton to one at Alabama

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm a Princeton alum as well but I differ somewhat from the previous poster. When I attended there was a strong sense of "separating the wheat from the chaff" in a way that I suspect differs from most peer schools. I think this is most concretely epitomized by grade deflation and also by the hierarchy of eating clubs and extracurricular activities on campus. In general, hierarchy was inescapably both academically and socially. Maybe this is true at most elite schools, but I'd never experienced hierarchy like that before Princeton and honestly haven't experienced it at any time in my adult life since. Comparing notes against colleagues who attended peer schools, I tend to think that Princeton's focus on hierarchy is uniquely intense.

I believe that grade deflation was just a manifestation of the school's culture of hierarchy. At least academically, there's a very strong sense of meritocracy - which depending on perspective is a good thing. However, it often comes along with a sort of Puritanism on the part of administration and faculty where academic achievement is presented as the end all be all of life and as being "moral." In some way, it makes sense since the institution is the closest I know of to being a true "ivory tower." Most peer institutions are strongly influenced by professional schools and ties to industry, whereas Princeton exists in relative isolation from the rest of the world. It is a much more "pure" version of academia. I think this is excellent for students who intend on entering academia but inappropriate for most others.

During my time at Princeton, I couldn't help but feel that the grade deflation policy arose from some sense of being high and mighty or "holier than thou." There was a sense that Princeton needed to deflate grades to preserve its purity. A clear pecking order among students needed to be strictly enforced in order for administration to feel they were upholding their moral obligations. I think this manifests in other core elements of the Princeton such as the Honor Committee, which is essentially a tribunal of overzealous pre-law students who enforce Princeton's sometimes draconian academic codes.

Unfortunately, the hierarchy of extracurricular activities and eating clubs also meant there wasn't much social escape from the pressures and academic culture. Additionally the relative geographic isolation made it difficult to find an escape outside of the college. During my time there I at least personally felt trapped and am glad that college is now in the distant past. I think that the campus is beautiful and the teaching quality is exceptional. However, the culture(from the top down) is deeply unhealthy. My time at Princeton crushed my confidence in my early twenties and I think that the grade deflation policy had meaningful professional consequences in my early career. I've since built a successful career but I don't credit Princeton for it in the slightest. I am actively discouraging my own children from applying.

Prior Princeton PP here. You seem thoughtful and introspective, and I respect your opinion. It's the only school I attended as an undergraduate, so I can't really comment on whether Princeton was or remains uniquely "meritocratic" or hierarchical compared to other top universities. When I was there, the grade inflation at other Ivies wasn't as conspicuous or well-known, so there wasn't a lot of attention on whether Princeton was intent on "grade deflation" to distinguish itself from other Ivies (it has since largely disavowed that policy, although the average GPA may still be somewhat lower than at other Ivies).

For me, it mostly felt like drinking from a water fountain of opportunities. My first economics professor had worked for the Council of Economic Advisors and the second subsequently won a Nobel Prize. I took an upper-level French class as a freshman that was taught by a professor who could not have been more entertaining and encouraging (and was subsequently elected to the French Legion of Honour). My thesis advisor helped me turn my senior thesis into a shorter paper that was published professionally and is still quoted years later. Other professors were equally committed and helpful. Meanwhile, I got to meet kids from all over the country (and world), take trips to New York City (which I'd never visited before college), play journalist, and hang out at an eating club that certainly wasn't Ivy or Cap & Gown, but nevertheless always seemed to book bands right before they got famous. At no point did I feel like I was being crushed, and at many points I was being elevated. Subsequently, having a degree from Princeton was absolutely beneficial when it came to securing later jobs.

Neither my spouse nor I pushed our kids to attend our alma maters (spouse also attended a T10 school), as neither seemed like a good fit, but the kids of my classmates who later attended Princeton seemed to have had very good experiences. For the right kid, I can't think of anywhere else that would provide a better experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes sense. Do you think the TO policies have let in students who can't do the work which would cause them to be more stressed out?

I had a relatively elite educational background going into Princeton but still found it extremely difficult when I attended. In my experience, even strong students were very stressed. Personally, I think it has more to do with the institution itself.

Were you a STEM major? Bc this is extremely far from my Pton experience, my dh's Pton experience, any of my friends, or my current Pton dd's experience. If anything it was less work than high school for many of us. Granted we were all lib arts majors, but we were also athletes, involved in clubs etc and it was not the soul crushing grind you are describing. Not trying to negate your experience, just offering a different perspective on this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Except at a big state school your gen Chem class isn’t comprised of all valedictorians…..you can’t compare a curve at Princeton to one at Alabama

I kind of doubt Princeton engineering is far more competitive/a grind compared to Berkeley, for example. The Princeton name only goes so far in tech, many hiring managers have a disdain for ivies. I know a 2022 Princeton engineering grad who has been un/underemployed since then.

[Anonymous]

Weird tangent but years ago, I was paired at my law firm as an associate mentor with a summer associate with a liberal arts major from Princeton who was at Yale law school. She must have been a great test taker because she couldn’t write a coherent sentence if her life depended on it and she was in no way a hooked admit. Never could figure out what happened there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes sense. Do you think the TO policies have let in students who can't do the work which would cause them to be more stressed out?

I had a relatively elite educational background going into Princeton but still found it extremely difficult when I attended. In my experience, even strong students were very stressed. Personally, I think it has more to do with the institution itself.

Were you a STEM major? Bc this is extremely far from my Pton experience, my dh's Pton experience, any of my friends, or my current Pton dd's experience. If anything it was less work than high school for many of us. Granted we were all lib arts majors, but we were also athletes, involved in clubs etc and it was not the soul crushing grind you are describing. Not trying to negate your experience, just offering a different perspective on this thread.

DP. In the four years I was at Princeton, I only remember two instances where students seemed overtly competitive. First, I wasn't pre-med but took an intro Chemistry class that was graded on a curve. The final grades were posted outside a lecture hall. I was talking to a friend who was pre-med and when she saw that I'd gotten an A in the course she lit into me about how I was messing up the curve for no reason since I wasn't planning on medical school. Second, one of my roommates had a medical condition and got an extension to complete their senior thesis, which subsequently got departmental honors. I remember some other students complaining about my roommate getting an extension even though they probably should have just been happy they'd finished their theses on time. Apart from that, people never seemed overtly competitive and, if anything, were collaborative.

At the school that I attended for my next degree, there were a lot of students, including undergraduates, who tended to visibly wear their alienation on their sleeve. That's never been Princeton's style - if there are disaffected kids they tend to put up a good front (or join Terrace, lol) and that's not always a good thing. Hard to say if it's a Protestant legacy, an Asian mindset, or something else entirely.

[Anonymous]

My child is at Princeton, and you all are scaring me. I strongly hope that med/law/grad schools are aware of the grade deflation at the school and take that into consideration.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The grading on a curve is not “deflation”, it only seems harsh in comparison to the grade inflation at other ivies. It’s normal at many state schools that are ranked lower so it’s not simply an elitist or hierarchal issue. Princeton (and ivies in general) do not seem to attract many tougher, resourceful, and resilient students.

Except at a big state school your gen Chem class isn’t comprised of all valedictorians…..you can’t compare a curve at Princeton to one at Alabama

I kind of doubt Princeton engineering is far more competitive/a grind compared to Berkeley, for example. The Princeton name only goes so far in tech, many hiring managers have a disdain for ivies. I know a 2022 Princeton engineering grad who has been un/underemployed since then.

I don’t know much about Princeton engineering but I do know there are lots of kids there for premed, math, physics, economics, etc. . .all of whom are dealing with the C curve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This makes sense. Do you think the TO policies have let in students who can't do the work which would cause them to be more stressed out?

I had a relatively elite educational background going into Princeton but still found it extremely difficult when I attended. In my experience, even strong students were very stressed. Personally, I think it has more to do with the institution itself.

Were you a STEM major? Bc this is extremely far from my Pton experience, my dh's Pton experience, any of my friends, or my current Pton dd's experience. If anything it was less work than high school for many of us. Granted we were all lib arts majors, but we were also athletes, involved in clubs etc and it was not the soul crushing grind you are describing. Not trying to negate your experience, just offering a different perspective on this thread.

I was thinking that too. STEM majors are different. The type of people in them tend to be intense. Princeton really pivoted as to being known for STEM.

Hopkins also has that super intense type of STEM student. I was a STEM student so I certainly was surrounded by an 'intense' bunch. I was very different from your typical STEM major--white, female, athlete, social--and I did not let the pressure get to me and had lots of fun in college while maintaining a decent gpa--lower first two years and then high last 2 when courses were more oriented to my particular interests. STEM can attract a lot of on the spectrum types who don't have that social outlet to relieve the stress.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child is at Princeton, and you all are scaring me. I strongly hope that med/law/grad schools are aware of the grade deflation at the school and take that into consideration.

The official "grade deflation" policy was lifted a decade ago. It's just that grades remain inflated at some other schools.

In general, med/law/grad schools are not going to adjust a Princeton GPA, but your kid will be fine if they attend Columbia Law or Penn Law rather than Harvard Law.