Jennifer Crumbley found guilty. Hope this opens the door for prosecuting parents for their children's violent crimes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been thinking about this case a lot. By all accounts, the woman was a terrible parent and made really awful choices. I don't disagree that she abdicated her responsibilities and bears some blame for what happened.

BUT. I invite you to read the special needs forum. There are many parents that do mean well and still seem to be throwing their hands up. And I get that. Mental illness is not something you plan for as a parent. You can have the best intentions and get lost along the way - I don't know, end up escaping the daily pain and grind by seeking out affairs and risky behavior?

I am so lucky I've not had to go through this. But I think we have entered a really really slippery slope with this verdict. Think of the civil litigation this will enable if a kid punches another on the playground, or if a minor drinks alcohol at home and kills someone with their parents' car. Where does the liability end?

The liability ends when you don't buy your (or any) minor a gun, especially when you know they have a history of mental illness. I actually don't think this should be limited to the child's parents--it can be any adult who is giving a child easy access to a gun. No one is saying a parent should be arrested for a playground fight but in your example of drunk driving, if a parent knowingly gives an underage person alcohol and then allows them to drive then, yes, they should be held liable. If a bartender can be held liable if they overserve a legal adult and that person is caught drunk driving then a parent who gives their child alcohol and a set of car keys should also be liable. My parents didn't have an issue with me and my friends having a few drinks at home when we were 19/20 but they collected our keys first and no one was allowed to leave the house until the next morning.

[Anonymous]

In all the articles I’ve read about this family I’ve never seen anything mentioned about grandparents or aunts and uncles or cousins or anything. Seems like a really disconnected family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

JC did nothing, in fact she put her head in the sand, checked out, and continued her life as if her child wasn't crying out for help, continuously. If only there was a way to control who has kids just to check boxes, and kids who are genuinely wanted. It is unfair to unleash their wrath on everyone else.

None of that was criminal. Giving her child a gun crossed a line. That’s where you go from “bad parenting” to involuntary manslaughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

Excuse me. What is wrong with giving a kid a gun? Just because you don’t hear does not mean it is odd or unusual. I am from a rural area and got my first rifle at 12.

Did you also have hallucinations and homicidal thoughts that you disclosed to your parents?

Mother did not know the homicidal thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

Excuse me. What is wrong with giving a kid a gun? Just because you don’t hear does not mean it is odd or unusual. I am from a rural area and got my first rifle at 12.

Giving a CHILD a LETHAL WEAPON is wrong, you idiot.

No it is not. In fact I would suspect that there are millions of kids that get weapons well before 18. In every state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Major mistake. There was no way to know he would shoot up the school. Hopefully this will be reversed on appeal. I doubt this judge will throw the verdict out but she should.

No it was not a major mistake. It was a negligent parent who ignored many signs that there were problems with her child. She willfully disdained paying attention because she was more interested in her own life.

When he was 8, his parents would leave him along for hours, going out eating and drinking.
He told her he was hallucinating. He texted asking for help. She didn't even respond.
Several times he texted her, but she frequently ignored his texts to spend time with her horses or going out with her AP.
She paid more attention to her horses and her swinging lifestyle than she did to her child.
Her child had multiple incidents at school. She never attended any parent-teacher conferences to talk about his progress, lack thereof, or behavior in school.
Her son's only friend moved away. She did nothing.
Child was isolated, withdrawn and had no friends. She never spoke with him, but instead of talking with him to evaluate his mental state, they bought him a gun.
Yes, her husband was responsible for gun safety, but she never ever paid enough attention to learn where the combination was or to check that it was still on the factory setting of 000
On the day of the killing spree, she was called in to work, saw a very disturbing drawing by her son, and then insisted she couldn't take him home or work on getting him medical treatment, she had to go back to work, despite her boss testifying that they had a very lax workplace and she could have brought him back to work or taken the rest of the day off with a phone call. But she insisted that if the school would not let him go back to class, that he would have to walk home alone and be home alone without anyone.
She saw the horrifying drawing that included the gun that they had given him 4 days before and didn't think to ask him if he had the gun or tell the school he had such a gun.

It was not a major mistake. She was grossly negligent as a parent and that was why she was rightly convicted.

The dad did the same things. Do you only think this way about JC or also about her husband?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Major mistake. There was no way to know he would shoot up the school. Hopefully this will be reversed on appeal. I doubt this judge will throw the verdict out but she should.

No it was not a major mistake. It was a negligent parent who ignored many signs that there were problems with her child. She willfully disdained paying attention because she was more interested in her own life.

When he was 8, his parents would leave him along for hours, going out eating and drinking.
He told her he was hallucinating. He texted asking for help. She didn't even respond.
Several times he texted her, but she frequently ignored his texts to spend time with her horses or going out with her AP.
She paid more attention to her horses and her swinging lifestyle than she did to her child.
Her child had multiple incidents at school. She never attended any parent-teacher conferences to talk about his progress, lack thereof, or behavior in school.
Her son's only friend moved away. She did nothing.
Child was isolated, withdrawn and had no friends. She never spoke with him, but instead of talking with him to evaluate his mental state, they bought him a gun.
Yes, her husband was responsible for gun safety, but she never ever paid enough attention to learn where the combination was or to check that it was still on the factory setting of 000
On the day of the killing spree, she was called in to work, saw a very disturbing drawing by her son, and then insisted she couldn't take him home or work on getting him medical treatment, she had to go back to work, despite her boss testifying that they had a very lax workplace and she could have brought him back to work or taken the rest of the day off with a phone call. But she insisted that if the school would not let him go back to class, that he would have to walk home alone and be home alone without anyone.
She saw the horrifying drawing that included the gun that they had given him 4 days before and didn't think to ask him if he had the gun or tell the school he had such a gun.

It was not a major mistake. She was grossly negligent as a parent and that was why she was rightly convicted.

You just wrote the brief to reverse. Negligence is not enough.

[Anonymous]

Kid charged as an adult but mom charged because he was a minor. Can’t have it both ways. Fine charge her but kid should be charged as a juvenile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

Excuse me. What is wrong with giving a kid a gun? Just because you don’t hear does not mean it is odd or unusual. I am from a rural area and got my first rifle at 12.

Giving a CHILD a LETHAL WEAPON is wrong, you idiot.

No it is not. In fact I would suspect that there are millions of kids that get weapons well before 18. In every state.

And if those millions of kids shoot anyone with those weapons, those adults who gave those guns to those kids should be civilly and perhaps criminally liable. In every state.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Major mistake. There was no way to know he would shoot up the school. Hopefully this will be reversed on appeal. I doubt this judge will throw the verdict out but she should.

No it was not a major mistake. It was a negligent parent who ignored many signs that there were problems with her child. She willfully disdained paying attention because she was more interested in her own life.

When he was 8, his parents would leave him along for hours, going out eating and drinking.
He told her he was hallucinating. He texted asking for help. She didn't even respond.
Several times he texted her, but she frequently ignored his texts to spend time with her horses or going out with her AP.
She paid more attention to her horses and her swinging lifestyle than she did to her child.
Her child had multiple incidents at school. She never attended any parent-teacher conferences to talk about his progress, lack thereof, or behavior in school.
Her son's only friend moved away. She did nothing.
Child was isolated, withdrawn and had no friends. She never spoke with him, but instead of talking with him to evaluate his mental state, they bought him a gun.
Yes, her husband was responsible for gun safety, but she never ever paid enough attention to learn where the combination was or to check that it was still on the factory setting of 000
On the day of the killing spree, she was called in to work, saw a very disturbing drawing by her son, and then insisted she couldn't take him home or work on getting him medical treatment, she had to go back to work, despite her boss testifying that they had a very lax workplace and she could have brought him back to work or taken the rest of the day off with a phone call. But she insisted that if the school would not let him go back to class, that he would have to walk home alone and be home alone without anyone.
She saw the horrifying drawing that included the gun that they had given him 4 days before and didn't think to ask him if he had the gun or tell the school he had such a gun.

It was not a major mistake. She was grossly negligent as a parent and that was why she was rightly convicted.

The dad did the same things. Do you only think this way about JC or also about her husband?

Not PP but the dad is going to trial separately next month so we shall see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

Excuse me. What is wrong with giving a kid a gun? Just because you don’t hear does not mean it is odd or unusual. I am from a rural area and got my first rifle at 12.

Did you also have hallucinations and homicidal thoughts that you disclosed to your parents?

Mother did not know the homicidal thoughts.

Yeah she did.
https://nypost.com/2021/12/24/michigan-school-shooter-ethan-crumbleys-drawings-revealed-in-chilling-documents/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you get a mentally ill teen -especially one over 18 “committed?” Where are these magical institutions that have beds available because I think my legally adult teen might be violent? Are they for adults or kids? If they are not state-run, I assume they can just check themselves AMA if they want? If not, who’s paying for it? Does the person’s right to freedom disappear if I am afraid they might commit a crime? Why hold Adam Lanza’s father responsible when he had to no ability to change the circumstances of his son’s condition? Was he supposed to forcibly imprison his son? Slip him an un prescribed medication? Smother him with a pillow? What’s the degree of responsibility for another person’s actions?

This is different. JC was living with her child. They had custody of a minor child, and they gave that child a GUN.

I know a family with a violent child. He was adopted. He is crazy, and the parents have moved mountains to help him. The child may end up in jail or worse. It is NOT the parents' fault. They have another adopted child who is healthy and a very sweet person.

But JC was a horror. She did nothing to help her child. She didn't even notice that her child was mentally ill. She is a sick woman.

Excuse me. What is wrong with giving a kid a gun? Just because you don’t hear does not mean it is odd or unusual. I am from a rural area and got my first rifle at 12.

If the kid goes on to kill someone with that gun, the parent should 100% be responsible.

+1 Not a coincidence that this just passed in Michigan.

And that law ONLY passed because of a Dem legislature and Dem governor. This would not happen in a red state.

Not only should safe storage be the law everywhere, it should apply to anyone not just people under the age of 18. Anyone who owns a firearm should have to register it, and should also have to carry liability insurance on it for any acts of violence perpetrated with it whether intentional or accidental, same as with a vehicle. And it is well past time that the firearms manufacturers implemented the fingerprint technology they have had for decades which would prevent a firearm being used by anyone but the lawful registered owner. Gun safes should also require fingerprint or iris/face scanning technology to prevent access by any but the lawful owner.

Of course the 2A fanatics and firearms industry doesn’t want to see these measures legislated because it will significantly reduce the firearms market.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Major mistake. There was no way to know he would shoot up the school. Hopefully this will be reversed on appeal. I doubt this judge will throw the verdict out but she should.

No it was not a major mistake. It was a negligent parent who ignored many signs that there were problems with her child. She willfully disdained paying attention because she was more interested in her own life.

When he was 8, his parents would leave him along for hours, going out eating and drinking.
He told her he was hallucinating. He texted asking for help. She didn't even respond.
Several times he texted her, but she frequently ignored his texts to spend time with her horses or going out with her AP.
She paid more attention to her horses and her swinging lifestyle than she did to her child.
Her child had multiple incidents at school. She never attended any parent-teacher conferences to talk about his progress, lack thereof, or behavior in school.
Her son's only friend moved away. She did nothing.
Child was isolated, withdrawn and had no friends. She never spoke with him, but instead of talking with him to evaluate his mental state, they bought him a gun.
Yes, her husband was responsible for gun safety, but she never ever paid enough attention to learn where the combination was or to check that it was still on the factory setting of 000
On the day of the killing spree, she was called in to work, saw a very disturbing drawing by her son, and then insisted she couldn't take him home or work on getting him medical treatment, she had to go back to work, despite her boss testifying that they had a very lax workplace and she could have brought him back to work or taken the rest of the day off with a phone call. But she insisted that if the school would not let him go back to class, that he would have to walk home alone and be home alone without anyone.
She saw the horrifying drawing that included the gun that they had given him 4 days before and didn't think to ask him if he had the gun or tell the school he had such a gun.

It was not a major mistake. She was grossly negligent as a parent and that was why she was rightly convicted.

The dad did the same things. Do you only think this way about JC or also about her husband?

Not PP but the dad is going to trial separately next month so we shall see.

Maybe he will go to trial, maybe not. I suspect there are a lot of calls going back and forth between his counsel and prosecutors at this point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Major mistake. There was no way to know he would shoot up the school. Hopefully this will be reversed on appeal. I doubt this judge will throw the verdict out but she should.

No it was not a major mistake. It was a negligent parent who ignored many signs that there were problems with her child. She willfully disdained paying attention because she was more interested in her own life.

When he was 8, his parents would leave him along for hours, going out eating and drinking.
He told her he was hallucinating. He texted asking for help. She didn't even respond.
Several times he texted her, but she frequently ignored his texts to spend time with her horses or going out with her AP.
She paid more attention to her horses and her swinging lifestyle than she did to her child.
Her child had multiple incidents at school. She never attended any parent-teacher conferences to talk about his progress, lack thereof, or behavior in school.
Her son's only friend moved away. She did nothing.
Child was isolated, withdrawn and had no friends. She never spoke with him, but instead of talking with him to evaluate his mental state, they bought him a gun.
Yes, her husband was responsible for gun safety, but she never ever paid enough attention to learn where the combination was or to check that it was still on the factory setting of 000
On the day of the killing spree, she was called in to work, saw a very disturbing drawing by her son, and then insisted she couldn't take him home or work on getting him medical treatment, she had to go back to work, despite her boss testifying that they had a very lax workplace and she could have brought him back to work or taken the rest of the day off with a phone call. But she insisted that if the school would not let him go back to class, that he would have to walk home alone and be home alone without anyone.
She saw the horrifying drawing that included the gun that they had given him 4 days before and didn't think to ask him if he had the gun or tell the school he had such a gun.

It was not a major mistake. She was grossly negligent as a parent and that was why she was rightly convicted.

The dad did the same things. Do you only think this way about JC or also about her husband?

Not PP but the dad is going to trial separately next month so we shall see.

Maybe he will go to trial, maybe not. I suspect there are a lot of calls going back and forth between his counsel and prosecutors at this point.

Well yeah he could plead guilty, but my point is that he’s being charged just as the mother was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the guilty sentence was deserved. I live in DC. I would like to see parents of all the children carjacking and murdering also charged. The only hope of the U.S. is for us to demand better, more stable, more engaged parenting. Schools can't solve it all.

Now the dad needs to go to jail