APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality

Or just some kids want to do music *and* play a sport because they enjoy doing both.

Or said kids can do marching band in the fall and choose another sport during the winter and spring. Two seasons of sports, one season of marching.

Some sports are only offered in the fall at W-L.

If you want to do those sports you can't if you also want to perform in advanced band.

Having the marching band requirement is too restrictive and they lose musicians because of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I guess the question is would the school symphonic band's non-marching component be better served by not combining the two. If the band is losing a lot of kids who don't want to do marching band, then one question is "is marching band important enough that it is OK that it is weakening the non-marching components of the program?"

It doesn't help.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

But advanced band is NOT just advanced band. Advanced band is advanced band plus marching band. Two very different beasts.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

A 70 person marching band is not ever going to be very good. Do you have other suggestions to increase participation?

I disagree that a 70 person marching band can't be good. Yorktown's band is good. Can you do more with more? Absolutely. But one of my high school band rivals (we were 140) was from a tiny farm town without football but a very strong marching band of about half our size. Very strong musically as well as on the field marching.

Bigger is not always better and you don't have to be a large group to be good. There are many large bands that aren't particularly outstanding, or even good.

I'd like to see the school encourage more appreciation for the band. They can start by (1) not always making the band field schedule have to work around everyone else's practices; (2) encouraging people to actually watch the halftime performance; (3) letting the visiting band also perform at halftime - at least the Arlington games where the "visiting" band attends but does not perform, only plays in the stands; (4) promoting the accomplishments of the band when they compete or at least announcing their upcoming competition and wish them luck over the announcements, with signs in the hallways, whatever; (5) have the band actually take the field for the National Anthem and also play, minimally, the fight song and maybe another pop tune before the football game; (6) not pushing everyone out of the stadium at the sound of the last buzzer and listen to the band playing the fight song and other "cheer" songs after games. And teachers can refrain from complaining when band students have to leave or miss class for a band commitment (which is rare anyway). Don't know if/how much that happens; but I had a teacher who did that when band kids were missing one class to go do concerts at elementary schools. Claimed the time commitment of band harmed their academic performance, but failed to realize how many band kids were actually honor students.

Oh, and they could stop playing music over the loudspeaker during football games and let the band play instead, and not play the recorded music over them while the band is playing. (That means the band director needs to make sure the band has a decent repertoire for when they're in the stands and plays whenever they have the chance during the game. Some bands are better at that than others.)

Bands themselves could encourage the program by (1) learning their competition show at the beginning of the season and paying different (more entertaining for the non-marching-band appreciators) music at the different football games. For non-band people, seeing the same show every week doesn't draw them in - especially when they only have part of a show at the beginning of the season.

Bands already do other things like middle school band night, parades at elementary schools, and pep rallies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

Every student qualified for advanced band has the same choice: advanced band with marching band, concert band without marching band, concert band with marching band, no band. Nobody is forcing any of those decisions - you just don't like that the choice you prefer isn't an option.

I'd be interested in surveying the symphonic band students to see how many would not do the marching part if they didn't "have" to. I really believe the majority of them enjoy it or at least don't mind it enough to quit. Those who don't or who want to pursue other priorities drop it as they progress through high school. That's fine. They made their choices - didn't try to bend or change the rules to accommodate their own preferences. I am an ardent marching band advocate; but I do not like the way the band program is run here. I think it prioritizes symphonic band to the detriment of the concert band. But I don't have a problem with marching band being part of symphonic band requirements.

No one has the choice of just advanced band. They are forcing marching band for kids who want do advanced band.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

It's more fun for audiences who don't know enough about a field show to appreciate them, or who don't like the colorguard.

So...all HS sporting audiences?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

I like marching band a lot - I did it myself for four years and competed in a national competition. I don’t think kids who want to do advanced band at W-L should be forced to do it though.

This may actually be your issue. Your view of marching band is the narrow category of bands that focus on competitions. There's another whole group of bands who opt out of field show competitions and focus on other things. I was in a marching band that did zero competitions, but marched in the Rose Bowl Parade, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, Orange Bowl Parade, Chicago St. Patrick's Day parade, Inauguration parades, NFL half time shows, Nascar races, etc. There were tons of opportunities to do cool performances, but they were spread more evenly over the year and had more flexibility for participation in individual events.

All I'm saying is that there are other models for a successful marching band than the competition model, which has rigid participation needs and a fixed schedule that conflicts with fall sports. Marching band can be "agile" if you don't lock yourself into one concept.

Any model is fine - maybe marching band "light" would attract more kids - as long as the kids are choosing to participate and aren't forced because it's a required activity for advanced band.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

A 70 person marching band is not ever going to be very good. Do you have other suggestions to increase participation?

I disagree that a 70 person marching band can't be good. Yorktown's band is good. Can you do more with more? Absolutely. But one of my high school band rivals (we were 140) was from a tiny farm town without football but a very strong marching band of about half our size. Very strong musically as well as on the field marching.

Bigger is not always better and you don't have to be a large group to be good. There are many large bands that aren't particularly outstanding, or even good.

I'd like to see the school encourage more appreciation for the band. They can start by (1) not always making the band field schedule have to work around everyone else's practices; (2) encouraging people to actually watch the halftime performance; (3) letting the visiting band also perform at halftime - at least the Arlington games where the "visiting" band attends but does not perform, only plays in the stands; (4) promoting the accomplishments of the band when they compete or at least announcing their upcoming competition and wish them luck over the announcements, with signs in the hallways, whatever; (5) have the band actually take the field for the National Anthem and also play, minimally, the fight song and maybe another pop tune before the football game; (6) not pushing everyone out of the stadium at the sound of the last buzzer and listen to the band playing the fight song and other "cheer" songs after games. And teachers can refrain from complaining when band students have to leave or miss class for a band commitment (which is rare anyway). Don't know if/how much that happens; but I had a teacher who did that when band kids were missing one class to go do concerts at elementary schools. Claimed the time commitment of band harmed their academic performance, but failed to realize how many band kids were actually honor students.

Oh, and they could stop playing music over the loudspeaker during football games and let the band play instead, and not play the recorded music over them while the band is playing. (That means the band director needs to make sure the band has a decent repertoire for when they're in the stands and plays whenever they have the chance during the game. Some bands are better at that than others.)

Bands themselves could encourage the program by (1) learning their competition show at the beginning of the season and paying different (more entertaining for the non-marching-band appreciators) music at the different football games. For non-band people, seeing the same show every week doesn't draw them in - especially when they only have part of a show at the beginning of the season.

Bands already do other things like middle school band night, parades at elementary schools, and pep rallies.

As I understand it the band already isn't working around other sports schedules, and that's why many kids are choosing not to participate. So that proposal won't help. There's zero reason to think that band being less flexible will make kids want to join. It's a stupid suggestion.

The number one thing the band could do to get more appreciation is to grow. People want to watch their friends perform. No one cares because they don't know anyone in the band.

I have no doubt a 70 person band could be okay for a smaller high school, but it's woefully undersized for the size of the APS high schools and is a sign of a weak program.

[Anonymous]

Do they offer flexibility for religious observance or are those kids stuck doing concert band too?

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

A 70 person marching band is not ever going to be very good. Do you have other suggestions to increase participation?

I disagree that a 70 person marching band can't be good. Yorktown's band is good. Can you do more with more? Absolutely. But one of my high school band rivals (we were 140) was from a tiny farm town without football but a very strong marching band of about half our size. Very strong musically as well as on the field marching.

Bigger is not always better and you don't have to be a large group to be good. There are many large bands that aren't particularly outstanding, or even good.

I'd like to see the school encourage more appreciation for the band. They can start by (1) not always making the band field schedule have to work around everyone else's practices; (2) encouraging people to actually watch the halftime performance; (3) letting the visiting band also perform at halftime - at least the Arlington games where the "visiting" band attends but does not perform, only plays in the stands; (4) promoting the accomplishments of the band when they compete or at least announcing their upcoming competition and wish them luck over the announcements, with signs in the hallways, whatever; (5) have the band actually take the field for the National Anthem and also play, minimally, the fight song and maybe another pop tune before the football game; (6) not pushing everyone out of the stadium at the sound of the last buzzer and listen to the band playing the fight song and other "cheer" songs after games. And teachers can refrain from complaining when band students have to leave or miss class for a band commitment (which is rare anyway). Don't know if/how much that happens; but I had a teacher who did that when band kids were missing one class to go do concerts at elementary schools. Claimed the time commitment of band harmed their academic performance, but failed to realize how many band kids were actually honor students.

Oh, and they could stop playing music over the loudspeaker during football games and let the band play instead, and not play the recorded music over them while the band is playing. (That means the band director needs to make sure the band has a decent repertoire for when they're in the stands and plays whenever they have the chance during the game. Some bands are better at that than others.)

Bands themselves could encourage the program by (1) learning their competition show at the beginning of the season and paying different (more entertaining for the non-marching-band appreciators) music at the different football games. For non-band people, seeing the same show every week doesn't draw them in - especially when they only have part of a show at the beginning of the season.

Bands already do other things like middle school band night, parades at elementary schools, and pep rallies.

All of the reasons why a pep band would be more fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do they offer flexibility for religious observance or are those kids stuck doing concert band too?

You mean like an Orthodox Jew not being able to attend any football games? I’m not aware of any such exception. There IS an alternative. It’s called concert band. Advanced band is not an entitlement - it already has an audition barrier to entry. Marching band is just another condition of enrollment, same as the successful audition.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality

Or just some kids want to do music *and* play a sport because they enjoy doing both.

Or said kids can do marching band in the fall and choose another sport during the winter and spring. Two seasons of sports, one season of marching.

Some sports are only offered in the fall at W-L.

If you want to do those sports you can't if you also want to perform in advanced band.

Having the marching band requirement is too restrictive and they lose musicians because of it.

The point is: you choose your activity. Why do people have to be able to do both? Marching band season is only in the fall. You can't do it in the winter or spring, either. It goes both ways: you can't do advanced band if you want to do a fall-only sport that conflicts with the band schedule. Maybe there are two fall-only sports someone is interested in. They need to choose ONE if one precludes the other. Marching band shouldn't be expected to change its program because a handful of kids on some sports teams would like to also do band.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

I like marching band a lot - I did it myself for four years and competed in a national competition. I don’t think kids who want to do advanced band at W-L should be forced to do it though.

This may actually be your issue. Your view of marching band is the narrow category of bands that focus on competitions. There's another whole group of bands who opt out of field show competitions and focus on other things. I was in a marching band that did zero competitions, but marched in the Rose Bowl Parade, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, Orange Bowl Parade, Chicago St. Patrick's Day parade, Inauguration parades, NFL half time shows, Nascar races, etc. There were tons of opportunities to do cool performances, but they were spread more evenly over the year and had more flexibility for participation in individual events.

All I'm saying is that there are other models for a successful marching band than the competition model, which has rigid participation needs and a fixed schedule that conflicts with fall sports. Marching band can be "agile" if you don't lock yourself into one concept.

Those opportunities are not just for the grabbing.

What many of us are saying is that there is another perspective: instead of band conflicting with fall sports, fall sports conflict with band. Some actually choose band over a fall sport because they can still choose another sport during winter and/or spring.

And if people suggesting band would be better filled with students who really want to be there, that's what we have now because the students participating are choosing to do so despite other fall season activities. The size and quality of what we have now is a product of the investment and commitment and value APS (and parents) are willing to give the programs.

This is the model now, and the program isn't doing well. It's not a healthy program.

Well, it's doing just fine at Wakefield right now.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

But advanced band is NOT just advanced band. Advanced band is advanced band plus marching band. Two very different beasts.

And yet doing one means doing the other. It's not sprung on the kids after-the-fact. They know symphonic band means marching band and that they could opt to do concert band instead. If there are REALLY THAT many kids not doing symphonic band because of the marching requirement, then the concert band program would really be booming. It wouldn't be so "boring" or "beneath" them because so many "advanced" musicians would be in it. And let's face it, all those symphonic band members are not really "advanced" players. There's no "intermediate" or "intensified" band. You're either a beginner, a freshman, or the odd one willing to stay in concert band to avoid marching band. Lots of mediocre, non-advanced members in symphonic band.