APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

Not all schools have a marching band requirement.

I've never heard of a school that required marching band.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

Marching band is an additional 1 credit that shows up on the transcript with a grade (parent of a 4-yr APS symphonic/marching student)

Correction... It's a half credit since it's just one semester. Graded class, on the transcript

Graded separately than symphonic band?

Yes, both are listed separately. I don't know if you could end up with different grades in the two, my kid always had a A for both.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

Not all schools have a marching band requirement.

For APS/W-L - the topic of this thread.

You missed the point of the comment. No school in APS requires marching band. Symphonic band requires marching band; but the school does not. Does that help?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

For years, my kid has invested her time in an instrument and a fall sport. We were shocked that she could not do advanced band and her sport at W-L.

By forcing them to do marching band with advanced band they are losing students for various reasons.

So be it. Welcome to real life.

[Anonymous]

Is there a way to take symphonic band without marching band?

No, W-L forces kids who want to do symphonic band to participate in marching band, a time-intensive afterschool activity.

They would get more musicians without this requirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

Stop attacking people criticizing the policy as groupers and complainers. The central point of the thread is that there isn’t a compelling reason to make marching band a mandatory requirement for participation in symphonic band. People are rightly noting the variety of disadvantages that come from that policy. The only arguments I’ve hear in favor of the policy seem to be “we couldn’t field a marching band if we didn’t make it mandatory” and “stop whining”.

The first argument reveals that purpose of the policy isn’t actually to benefit the students, but in fact to harness the desires of students to participate in symphonic band to achieve someone else’s goals.

The second argument shows that you don’t have any other arguments.

+1

There is no benefit for the kids who don't want to do marching band. They aren't even earning extra credit hours for doing marching band.

Again, in APS marching band earns the student one credit hour.
There's "no benefit" for kids who don't want to do lacrosse. They don't even earn extra credit hours for all that practice time. 'cause credit is the only possible benefit of doing something

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

WRONG!!!! Yet AGAIN: in APS, marching band is FOR CREDIT. It appears on the report card. It earns a grade. It earns one credit hour.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

For years, my kid has invested her time in an instrument and a fall sport. We were shocked that she could not do advanced band and her sport at W-L.

By forcing them to do marching band with advanced band they are losing students for various reasons.

So be it. Welcome to real life.

Yes, we realize that’s reality. And it sucks. After playing with APS for five years she didn’t have a good option to continue.

Hopefully W-L will remove this ridiculous requirement before my younger kids reach HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

No, but intensified sciences require participation in science fair. My son refused to do intensified sciences because her didn't want to do that.

And for the griping that you can't do marching band + a fall sport (not completely true), do you also complain that a student can't do two fall sports because there will be conflicts?

Stop attacking people criticizing the policy as groupers and complainers. The central point of the thread is that there isn’t a compelling reason to make marching band a mandatory requirement for participation in symphonic band. People are rightly noting the variety of disadvantages that come from that policy. The only arguments I’ve hear in favor of the policy seem to be “we couldn’t field a marching band if we didn’t make it mandatory” and “stop whining”.

The first argument reveals that purpose of the policy isn’t actually to benefit the students, but in fact to harness the desires of students to participate in symphonic band to achieve someone else’s goals.

The second argument shows that you don’t have any other arguments.

There's no compelling reason to requiring science fair participation for intensified science, either.

Which intensified science course requires the science fair?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

This person obviously is pretending to care and actually has no understanding of music classes or marching band. Can't take their comments seriously.
Arts classes may be "inflexible" only because you can't offer them 7 periods a day so everybody can be sure to fit them into their schedule. As for after-school practices, same expectations as any other sports team. However, in APS, since marching band is FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT (caps for those who keep missing this point), performances and competitions are supposed to take priority over other NON-ACADEMIC extracurriculars. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean one's grade suffers because they miss a performance or a competition because they're sick or other "excused" reason.

In fact, concert and symphonic bands also have this requirement. Performances and state assessment are mandatory. Nobody's complaining about that because (1) they're unaware or (2) it's not really the performances people are whining about but the practices. Kids miss marching band practices from time to time, too - sick, appointment, travel, etc. It's worked out with the band director. But you don't just show up when you feel like it and don't when you don't want to. That's not acceptable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

This person obviously is pretending to care and actually has no understanding of music classes or marching band. Can't take their comments seriously.
Arts classes may be "inflexible" only because you can't offer them 7 periods a day so everybody can be sure to fit them into their schedule. As for after-school practices, same expectations as any other sports team. However, in APS, since marching band is FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT (caps for those who keep missing this point), performances and competitions are supposed to take priority over other NON-ACADEMIC extracurriculars. Nevertheless, that doesn't mean one's grade suffers because they miss a performance or a competition because they're sick or other "excused" reason.

In fact, concert and symphonic bands also have this requirement. Performances and state assessment are mandatory. Nobody's complaining about that because (1) they're unaware or (2) it's not really the performances people are whining about but the practices. Kids miss marching band practices from time to time, too - sick, appointment, travel, etc. It's worked out with the band director. But you don't just show up when you feel like it and don't when you don't want to. That's not acceptable.

Just like missing basketball practice or soccer practice and games are not acceptable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is one persistent whiny parent on this thread, who thinks their entitled child should get whatever they want. And will go to great lengths to insult what they can’t have.

It's not entitled. Marching band is a huge commitment and its supporting sports. If you have a kid into sports its not fair to tell them to cheer on other kids but they cannot do their sport.

So cheerleaders should be able to not do cheerleading because they might want to do a different sport that they would otherwise have to cheer for?
Hate to break it to you, but the purpose of marching band is NOT to support sports. It traditionally is part and parcel with football, for whatever reason. That's it. But marching band today isn't FOR the football team. It's FOR the MUSIC students. I think the greater injustice is forcing the marching band to "support" football. What about other sports? Why not make the football team come out for band competitions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

OP here. I wasn't bashing music. I was asking if there was flexibility for other music commitments. I personally think it's nuts that that this isn't an established acceptable reason to skip marching band but stay in advanced band, but my kid isn't upset so we won't push it. But you can definitely support the arts and not support this marching band policy!!!

OP, I really don't think this back and forth even involves you or your original inquiry anymore. It's just band v sports now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about those who are in varsity football skip practice every so often so they can run track, too? Oh, sorry, both have mandatory practices because missing a practice could affect the team and the training

Stop bashing music. The arts already suffer and way more emphasis and preference is put on sports. Schools around the country are providing less and less funding for music, art, drama and chorus.

I think what they are doing is brilliant. You want to play in the music program? There is a 3 month commitment to play in marching band in addition to regular class. My large Fairfax HS did it back in the day. Playing in the top band in high school and playing in the marching band go hand in hand. Otherwise you don’t have a robust marching band without it.

The arts suffer as they are inflexible. Simple. When it comes down to it, marching band has a low priority for us. There is no teaching involved and some of the kids are well, obnoxious and think they are good when they aren't.

Sports are inflexible too. But nobody has a problem with that.

Our sports are very flexible. It sucks as we are paying for it but our coaches are far more supportive than anyone else.

Huh?
Kids pay to do marching band too. Now THAT should be a bigger complaint, since it's a requirement for a class.
And your coaches are more supportive about what?

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

Are there any equivalent courses that have a required intensive extracurricular activity?

Geometry intensified requires math olympiad?

AP Physics requires wrestling?

It isn't really extracurricular if you're getting academic credit for it. If you eliminate the academic credit but retain the requirement, then you can make those comparisons. But that's not what we have here in Arlington.

How many extra academic credits for advanced band (with mandated marching band) vs the beginner band?

ZERO. They are tacking on an extracurricular activity with a significant time commitment outside of school hours (that conflicts with many other fall activities) without giving any extra academic credits.

Marching band is an additional 1 credit that shows up on the transcript with a grade (parent of a 4-yr APS symphonic/marching student)

Correction... It's a half credit since it's just one semester. Graded class, on the transcript

Graded separately than symphonic band?

Yes, both are listed separately. I don't know if you could end up with different grades in the two, my kid always had a A for both.

You "can." I don't know how often it happens. But I don't think most music classes are particuarly challenging grade-wise. But you can get a lower grade if you consistently don't show up or clearly don't put in any effort.