APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marching Band should be an optional extra curricular activity. I know high schools across the country that mandate it for kids in certain bands or for a certain number of years and very few of the kids who were forced to do Marching Band enjoyed the experience. I am sure that some do but the ones I know all did the mandated number of years and then stopped, none thought about doing Marching Band in college.

We are trying to encourage kids to join a music program and then we limit their choices by forcing them to do something after school that might interfere with other activities or requirements that they might have. Arguing that they can participate in a less challenging option, ir a lower band, to avoid the requirement is silly. Kids have worked hard to improve their skills to be able to participate in a higher level group and then you say that they can only do that if they are willing to give up a month of summer vacation, time after school, and weekend days because they have to participate in a second activity.

Marching Band is a different beast then band or orchestra or other musical activities. It takes a different skill set to march and move. Not everyone is interested in the physical nature of marching band. Not everyone wants to play and move at the same time.

We should be making band more enticing, not less. Forcing kids to participate in a difficult, time consuming activity in order to be able to participate in the higher level band fails to make that class enticing.

Sounds like you are looking at a self-selecting group.

Kids who play sports also do marching band. The two are not mutually exclusive. OP is an extreme outlier with a peculiar teacher and a clueless parent who doesn't know how to support her DC.

I'm one of the marching band defenders here; but this is an unfair characterization of OP. I agree about the peculiar music teacher, but OP - and her daughter - are fine with her not doing symphonic band. OP merely asked if it was a possibility for her daughter to do symphonic without marching. OP seems quite supportive of her daughter's interests and talents, as well as her priorities and future ambitions.

OP here. Thank you! My daughter's teacher did not want her taking trumpet as a second instrument, I honestly haven't asked about anything else because the only other instruments my daughter has expressed any interest in are cello and piano - neither of which are relevant for band or emboucher. Her teacher actually did encourage her to do marching band and said most of her students do it mainly because it is fun and social. But my DC does not really like band music (she tolerates it now out of loyalty to the Arlington schools music program, which is how she got interested in music in the first place). She wants to do scales and practice Strauss and Mozart concertos until I beg her to put her horn away and go to sleep. DH and I do not know where her music drive came from -- definitely not from us but we are trying to support her as best we can. She loves her current youth orchestra and they seem to like her and she is getting tons of cool opportunities. It is a better fit for her than AYPO (which would be band-compatible) for a variety of reasons.

Music gets a lot better in high school. It's a huge step up. She can't really judge high school band based on her experience now - her music teacher wants her to do band and marching band. Why are you not listening to her music teacher?

Have a conversation with her music teacher. She can explain this to you and give you guidance. That's what you're paying her for, her experience and knowledge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP likes to deride marching band in an effort to get her special snowflake into symphonic band. I’ve got news for you, your kid is not the only exceptional and musically, gifted child in Arlington. It sounds like you need to find alternative plans for your kid to participate in music in the public schools. If you can’t follow the rules that are established for everyone, then you should seek out opportunities outside the school system.
If your kid plays a brass instrument, I highly suggest jazz band, which is offered spring semester. I’ve never heard more talented and gifted musicians than those in the Arlington high school jazz bands. Many of the kids in the Arlington band programs go on to become music majors.

“Rules are rules. People who criticize rules are whiners. Rules should never change because rules are rules and even if they weren’t wrong or could be better we’re better off not knowing because it’s wrong to criticize the rules.”

[Anonymous]

If she is Julliard level for any instrument, it’s not too late to learn violin for her public high school. Come on now.

Anonymous wrote:OP here again. I agree having more advanced band students does help the overall band. This year my DC taught the other students playing her instrument various counting techniques that she has learned through private instruction and summer music programs, so it bums me out that she may not continue with school band since I think she gets something out of that too. Unfortunately DC plays a brass instrument and switching to another instrument in school could mess with her embouchure (or at least that is what her private teacher fears, I know nothing about music). I guess she could do percussion, but she doesn't really like percussion. It is pretty late to start violin (which of course would avoid the marching band problem). She has expressed an interest in piano, but that also does not really help with school band. I guess we will talk to the band director but not holding out much hope.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP likes to deride marching band in an effort to get her special snowflake into symphonic band. I’ve got news for you, your kid is not the only exceptional and musically, gifted child in Arlington. It sounds like you need to find alternative plans for your kid to participate in music in the public schools. If you can’t follow the rules that are established for everyone, then you should seek out opportunities outside the school system.
If your kid plays a brass instrument, I highly suggest jazz band, which is offered spring semester. I’ve never heard more talented and gifted musicians than those in the Arlington high school jazz bands. Many of the kids in the Arlington band programs go on to become music majors.

I didn't take it as OP deriding marching band, just trying to figure out what's the right fit for her kid, who seems to be focused more on classical full symphony music. It was others who piled on with the negativity about marching band.

But I agree there are some very strong music students in APS. This kid, for one example, is a fabulous trombone player. And he manages to fit in marching band https://www.arlnow.com/2023/06/29/arlington-teen-to-join-a-carnegie-hall-jazz-group-on-summer-tour-of-europe/

[Anonymous]

Our kid is in FCPS and, in addition to a jerk band director, left band because she was tired of not being able to do a fall sport. In fact, while I wholeheartedly support the arts, forcing kids in the highest level of band to do marching band is BS, exactly because it is so time intensive. I love that my kids play instruments, but I won’t advocate for band for the marching band reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marching Band should be an optional extra curricular activity. I know high schools across the country that mandate it for kids in certain bands or for a certain number of years and very few of the kids who were forced to do Marching Band enjoyed the experience. I am sure that some do but the ones I know all did the mandated number of years and then stopped, none thought about doing Marching Band in college.

We are trying to encourage kids to join a music program and then we limit their choices by forcing them to do something after school that might interfere with other activities or requirements that they might have. Arguing that they can participate in a less challenging option, ir a lower band, to avoid the requirement is silly. Kids have worked hard to improve their skills to be able to participate in a higher level group and then you say that they can only do that if they are willing to give up a month of summer vacation, time after school, and weekend days because they have to participate in a second activity.

Marching Band is a different beast then band or orchestra or other musical activities. It takes a different skill set to march and move. Not everyone is interested in the physical nature of marching band. Not everyone wants to play and move at the same time.

We should be making band more enticing, not less. Forcing kids to participate in a difficult, time consuming activity in order to be able to participate in the higher level band fails to make that class enticing.

Sounds like you are looking at a self-selecting group.

Kids who play sports also do marching band. The two are not mutually exclusive. OP is an extreme outlier with a peculiar teacher and a clueless parent who doesn't know how to support her DC.

I'm one of the marching band defenders here; but this is an unfair characterization of OP. I agree about the peculiar music teacher, but OP - and her daughter - are fine with her not doing symphonic band. OP merely asked if it was a possibility for her daughter to do symphonic without marching. OP seems quite supportive of her daughter's interests and talents, as well as her priorities and future ambitions.

OP here. Thank you! My daughter's teacher did not want her taking trumpet as a second instrument, I honestly haven't asked about anything else because the only other instruments my daughter has expressed any interest in are cello and piano - neither of which are relevant for band or emboucher. Her teacher actually did encourage her to do marching band and said most of her students do it mainly because it is fun and social. But my DC does not really like band music (she tolerates it now out of loyalty to the Arlington schools music program, which is how she got interested in music in the first place). She wants to do scales and practice Strauss and Mozart concertos until I beg her to put her horn away and go to sleep. DH and I do not know where her music drive came from -- definitely not from us but we are trying to support her as best we can. She loves her current youth orchestra and they seem to like her and she is getting tons of cool opportunities. It is a better fit for her than AYPO (which would be band-compatible) for a variety of reasons.

OP, there is no teaching of instruments in MS or HS so they have to figure it out on their own or private lessons. I don't know what youth orchestra she is in but if she's that good she wants AYPO, MCYO or PVYO or equivalent. What does she play? Strings should not have to be in marching band. If they do, see if she can do flags, cymbals or something else easier than trumpet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marching Band should be an optional extra curricular activity. I know high schools across the country that mandate it for kids in certain bands or for a certain number of years and very few of the kids who were forced to do Marching Band enjoyed the experience. I am sure that some do but the ones I know all did the mandated number of years and then stopped, none thought about doing Marching Band in college.

We are trying to encourage kids to join a music program and then we limit their choices by forcing them to do something after school that might interfere with other activities or requirements that they might have. Arguing that they can participate in a less challenging option, ir a lower band, to avoid the requirement is silly. Kids have worked hard to improve their skills to be able to participate in a higher level group and then you say that they can only do that if they are willing to give up a month of summer vacation, time after school, and weekend days because they have to participate in a second activity.

Marching Band is a different beast then band or orchestra or other musical activities. It takes a different skill set to march and move. Not everyone is interested in the physical nature of marching band. Not everyone wants to play and move at the same time.

We should be making band more enticing, not less. Forcing kids to participate in a difficult, time consuming activity in order to be able to participate in the higher level band fails to make that class enticing.

Sounds like you are looking at a self-selecting group.

Kids who play sports also do marching band. The two are not mutually exclusive. OP is an extreme outlier with a peculiar teacher and a clueless parent who doesn't know how to support her DC.

I'm one of the marching band defenders here; but this is an unfair characterization of OP. I agree about the peculiar music teacher, but OP - and her daughter - are fine with her not doing symphonic band. OP merely asked if it was a possibility for her daughter to do symphonic without marching. OP seems quite supportive of her daughter's interests and talents, as well as her priorities and future ambitions.

OP here. Thank you! My daughter's teacher did not want her taking trumpet as a second instrument, I honestly haven't asked about anything else because the only other instruments my daughter has expressed any interest in are cello and piano - neither of which are relevant for band or emboucher. Her teacher actually did encourage her to do marching band and said most of her students do it mainly because it is fun and social. But my DC does not really like band music (she tolerates it now out of loyalty to the Arlington schools music program, which is how she got interested in music in the first place). She wants to do scales and practice Strauss and Mozart concertos until I beg her to put her horn away and go to sleep. DH and I do not know where her music drive came from -- definitely not from us but we are trying to support her as best we can. She loves her current youth orchestra and they seem to like her and she is getting tons of cool opportunities. It is a better fit for her than AYPO (which would be band-compatible) for a variety of reasons.

OP, there is no teaching of instruments in MS or HS so they have to figure it out on their own or private lessons. I don't know what youth orchestra she is in but if she's that good she wants AYPO, MCYO or PVYO or equivalent. What does she play? Strings should not have to be in marching band. If they do, see if she can do flags, cymbals or something else easier than trumpet.

You think colorguard is easier than trumpet?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marching Band should be an optional extra curricular activity. I know high schools across the country that mandate it for kids in certain bands or for a certain number of years and very few of the kids who were forced to do Marching Band enjoyed the experience. I am sure that some do but the ones I know all did the mandated number of years and then stopped, none thought about doing Marching Band in college.

We are trying to encourage kids to join a music program and then we limit their choices by forcing them to do something after school that might interfere with other activities or requirements that they might have. Arguing that they can participate in a less challenging option, ir a lower band, to avoid the requirement is silly. Kids have worked hard to improve their skills to be able to participate in a higher level group and then you say that they can only do that if they are willing to give up a month of summer vacation, time after school, and weekend days because they have to participate in a second activity.

Marching Band is a different beast then band or orchestra or other musical activities. It takes a different skill set to march and move. Not everyone is interested in the physical nature of marching band. Not everyone wants to play and move at the same time.

We should be making band more enticing, not less. Forcing kids to participate in a difficult, time consuming activity in order to be able to participate in the higher level band fails to make that class enticing.

Sounds like you are looking at a self-selecting group.

Kids who play sports also do marching band. The two are not mutually exclusive. OP is an extreme outlier with a peculiar teacher and a clueless parent who doesn't know how to support her DC.

I'm one of the marching band defenders here; but this is an unfair characterization of OP. I agree about the peculiar music teacher, but OP - and her daughter - are fine with her not doing symphonic band. OP merely asked if it was a possibility for her daughter to do symphonic without marching. OP seems quite supportive of her daughter's interests and talents, as well as her priorities and future ambitions.

OP here. Thank you! My daughter's teacher did not want her taking trumpet as a second instrument, I honestly haven't asked about anything else because the only other instruments my daughter has expressed any interest in are cello and piano - neither of which are relevant for band or emboucher. Her teacher actually did encourage her to do marching band and said most of her students do it mainly because it is fun and social. But my DC does not really like band music (she tolerates it now out of loyalty to the Arlington schools music program, which is how she got interested in music in the first place). She wants to do scales and practice Strauss and Mozart concertos until I beg her to put her horn away and go to sleep. DH and I do not know where her music drive came from -- definitely not from us but we are trying to support her as best we can. She loves her current youth orchestra and they seem to like her and she is getting tons of cool opportunities. It is a better fit for her than AYPO (which would be band-compatible) for a variety of reasons.

I’ve seen an fcps band director make a few exceptions for certain students to remain in the higher level band & skip marching band. Why not just talk to the band director? The OP plays innocent here, but I suspect she has a gripe with her school’s music program and fully-intended to start this negative thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Marching Band should be an optional extra curricular activity. I know high schools across the country that mandate it for kids in certain bands or for a certain number of years and very few of the kids who were forced to do Marching Band enjoyed the experience. I am sure that some do but the ones I know all did the mandated number of years and then stopped, none thought about doing Marching Band in college.

We are trying to encourage kids to join a music program and then we limit their choices by forcing them to do something after school that might interfere with other activities or requirements that they might have. Arguing that they can participate in a less challenging option, ir a lower band, to avoid the requirement is silly. Kids have worked hard to improve their skills to be able to participate in a higher level group and then you say that they can only do that if they are willing to give up a month of summer vacation, time after school, and weekend days because they have to participate in a second activity.

Marching Band is a different beast then band or orchestra or other musical activities. It takes a different skill set to march and move. Not everyone is interested in the physical nature of marching band. Not everyone wants to play and move at the same time.

We should be making band more enticing, not less. Forcing kids to participate in a difficult, time consuming activity in order to be able to participate in the higher level band fails to make that class enticing.

Sounds like you are looking at a self-selecting group.

Kids who play sports also do marching band. The two are not mutually exclusive. OP is an extreme outlier with a peculiar teacher and a clueless parent who doesn't know how to support her DC.

I'm one of the marching band defenders here; but this is an unfair characterization of OP. I agree about the peculiar music teacher, but OP - and her daughter - are fine with her not doing symphonic band. OP merely asked if it was a possibility for her daughter to do symphonic without marching. OP seems quite supportive of her daughter's interests and talents, as well as her priorities and future ambitions.

OP here. Thank you! My daughter's teacher did not want her taking trumpet as a second instrument, I honestly haven't asked about anything else because the only other instruments my daughter has expressed any interest in are cello and piano - neither of which are relevant for band or emboucher. Her teacher actually did encourage her to do marching band and said most of her students do it mainly because it is fun and social. But my DC does not really like band music (she tolerates it now out of loyalty to the Arlington schools music program, which is how she got interested in music in the first place). She wants to do scales and practice Strauss and Mozart concertos until I beg her to put her horn away and go to sleep. DH and I do not know where her music drive came from -- definitely not from us but we are trying to support her as best we can. She loves her current youth orchestra and they seem to like her and she is getting tons of cool opportunities. It is a better fit for her than AYPO (which would be band-compatible) for a variety of reasons.

She's a middle schooler. You should be encouraging her to try new things and put herself out there, not to lock herself into only playing only her favorite things. Her musical taste at 13 almost certainly won't be her taste at 25. Encourage curiosity. It's fine if she wants to stick with this orchestra, but her list of things she doesn't like and won't consider trying under any circumstance is a bit ridiculous.

--former 1st chair All State French hornist

[Anonymous]

Regarding W-L’s band teacher who just retired after roughly 40 as band director, he would allow Fall season varsity athletes, including the occasional varsity football player, play in the marching band / advanced band. And practice was scheduled so students could do both. The students who played football would actually march in their football uniforms with the band for the halftime show.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

APS did recently redistrict (to Yorktown) a lot of the Ashlawn and Taylor neighborhoods that directly fed W-L’s band program…But who cares if it’s only a small band today with only 70 students marching. It’s the quality of the program that matters most, and the W-L marching band is still winning the top “superior” rating as it has for decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP likes to deride marching band in an effort to get her special snowflake into symphonic band. I’ve got news for you, your kid is not the only exceptional and musically, gifted child in Arlington. It sounds like you need to find alternative plans for your kid to participate in music in the public schools. If you can’t follow the rules that are established for everyone, then you should seek out opportunities outside the school system.
If your kid plays a brass instrument, I highly suggest jazz band, which is offered spring semester. I’ve never heard more talented and gifted musicians than those in the Arlington high school jazz bands. Many of the kids in the Arlington band programs go on to become music majors.

“Rules are rules. People who criticize rules are whiners. Rules should never change because rules are rules and even if they weren’t wrong or could be better we’re better off not knowing because it’s wrong to criticize the rules.” [/

your rules suck. Mine are better.