APS - Symphonic Band marching band requirement

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

I like marching band a lot - I did it myself for four years and competed in a national competition. I don’t think kids who want to do advanced band at W-L should be forced to do it though.

This may actually be your issue. Your view of marching band is the narrow category of bands that focus on competitions. There's another whole group of bands who opt out of field show competitions and focus on other things. I was in a marching band that did zero competitions, but marched in the Rose Bowl Parade, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, Orange Bowl Parade, Chicago St. Patrick's Day parade, Inauguration parades, NFL half time shows, Nascar races, etc. There were tons of opportunities to do cool performances, but they were spread more evenly over the year and had more flexibility for participation in individual events.

All I'm saying is that there are other models for a successful marching band than the competition model, which has rigid participation needs and a fixed schedule that conflicts with fall sports. Marching band can be "agile" if you don't lock yourself into one concept.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

For better or worse (and correctly or incorrectly), parents and students have decided that sports are more important for college admissions than band. That means that band is losing members to sports and not the other way around. It's incumbent on the band director to find a solution to have a strong band.

-- fervent marching band supporter who acknowledges reality

Or just some kids want to do music *and* play a sport because they enjoy doing both.

Or said kids can do marching band in the fall and choose another sport during the winter and spring. Two seasons of sports, one season of marching.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

Or other popular high school activities could "find a way to coexist" with band. What the heck does "coexist with" even mean? They all currently co-exist. Why should marching band (which, btw, "coexists" with football because they have to do the pregame and halftime for them....no requirement for marching band to do anything at soccer or lacrosse or basketball or volleyball or crew or tennis or or or or) be made to work around EXTRACURRICULARS? Marching band IS FOR ACADEMIC CREDIT. The other extracurriculars should yield to marching band, if anything.

Hard NO! We do sports, private orchestra and all the stuff at school. Marching bad for us is not academic credit. If you blow off private orchestra you get kicked out. You can miss for illness but not anything else, including sport, vacation and birthdays. If it comes down to a school performance and private orchestra, private win out. You don't understand how it works. Why would a kid put aside their sports for cheer on someone else doing sports. We leave band early to go to sports and vice versa. We make it work but its a struggle with homework.

Why do you even bother doing band?
Like any team sport, band is a commitment to others and not just yourself. It's not right for you to come and go as you please because it takes away from the other members' experience.

My kid is very committed and good at it but has multiple interests. We will support them all. It’s not taking away from others experiences as mine is a better player and they need them.

OMG. The arrogance and the irony. They "need" your kid but your kid not being there does not take away from the others. How does that work exactly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

Once again, it’s not really an elective if it’s a requirement attached to something else. It’s a Hobson’s choice.

Band IS an elective. Marching band just happens to be part of the symphonic band elective - they come hand-in-hand upfront, so students know what they're signing up for and are not being forced to do something extra they didn't sign up for. They don't sign-up for crafts but refuse to do anything with clay; or chorus and not do performances or sing songs that aren't up-tempo. Students actually register for it and it is not mandatory for graduation. It goes toward Fine arts credits that are required; but there are other ways to earn those. So it is an elective.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

It's more fun for audiences who don't know enough about a field show to appreciate them, or who don't like the colorguard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

Yes. It is part of advanced band. Don't like it, don't do it. And those who are unwilling, don't.
All courses have their requirements. Marching band is one of the requirements for advanced band. How many other advanced classes do you advocate eliminating requirements from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

Every student qualified for advanced band has the same choice: advanced band with marching band, concert band without marching band, concert band with marching band, no band. Nobody is forcing any of those decisions - you just don't like that the choice you prefer isn't an option.

I'd be interested in surveying the symphonic band students to see how many would not do the marching part if they didn't "have" to. I really believe the majority of them enjoy it or at least don't mind it enough to quit. Those who don't or who want to pursue other priorities drop it as they progress through high school. That's fine. They made their choices - didn't try to bend or change the rules to accommodate their own preferences. I am an ardent marching band advocate; but I do not like the way the band program is run here. I think it prioritizes symphonic band to the detriment of the concert band. But I don't have a problem with marching band being part of symphonic band requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

DP. I did - for one season. My child chose to continue. If my child had chosen not to, that would have been fine with me as long as they DID choose some school-based extracurricular that extended their socialization and activity beyond school hours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

I like marching band a lot - I did it myself for four years and competed in a national competition. I don’t think kids who want to do advanced band at W-L should be forced to do it though.

This may actually be your issue. Your view of marching band is the narrow category of bands that focus on competitions. There's another whole group of bands who opt out of field show competitions and focus on other things. I was in a marching band that did zero competitions, but marched in the Rose Bowl Parade, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, Orange Bowl Parade, Chicago St. Patrick's Day parade, Inauguration parades, NFL half time shows, Nascar races, etc. There were tons of opportunities to do cool performances, but they were spread more evenly over the year and had more flexibility for participation in individual events.

All I'm saying is that there are other models for a successful marching band than the competition model, which has rigid participation needs and a fixed schedule that conflicts with fall sports. Marching band can be "agile" if you don't lock yourself into one concept.

Those opportunities are not just for the grabbing.

What many of us are saying is that there is another perspective: instead of band conflicting with fall sports, fall sports conflict with band. Some actually choose band over a fall sport because they can still choose another sport during winter and/or spring.

And if people suggesting band would be better filled with students who really want to be there, that's what we have now because the students participating are choosing to do so despite other fall season activities. The size and quality of what we have now is a product of the investment and commitment and value APS (and parents) are willing to give the programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

A 70 person marching band is not ever going to be very good. Do you have other suggestions to increase participation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

"More fun" is your opinion.

"Mobile?" Pep bands just sit in the stands and play short "cheer" songs. Marching bands have "marching" right in their name....What part of "marching" do you find to be immobile?

"Killing?" Where's your data? A handful of anecdotes explaining that their kid decided not to do band because they didn't want to march = "killing?" I am willing to bet it deters far fewer than it attracts. Not all middle school musicians are even interested in continuing with band in any form when they go to high school. It isn't marching band per se that's deterring them. Then there is another subset of the musicians who don't want to do marching band but do concert band; and another subset that drops band all together because playing their instrument isn't a high enough priority for them.

Since only the band parents seem to pay any attention to the band's halftime performances, I really don't think any of the students are doing marching band for school spirit. To marching band, football games are an obligation. The band competitions are their main focus. My kids (in and out of band) have always hated the pep rallies. There's no reason a voluntary "pep band" can't form for basketball games (which is what there was in my high school); but apparently there isn't much interest or demand for that.

High schools don't "need" a lot of things. At least band is an extenuation of the music curriculum.

Maybe agile is a better word? Fewer songs. Fewer coordinated moves. Fewer people to manage. Simpler uniforms. Etc.

And it’s “more fun” for an audience than a marching routine.

Anyway, just my opinion based on my own experience in various bands and seeing what the music program/culture is like at W-L.

You realize that pep band isn't at all equivalent, right? It doesn't have the same musicality, athleticism, teamwork, competition, etc. It's not at all in the same league.

Just because you don't like marching band doesn't mean it should be cut. Other people like watching field shows and parades. They like the uniforms. They like that it's a huge coordinated routine. You don't have to do it or watch it. But WL is HUGE and can absolutely support a marching band program. It's just being poorly led and administered, which is super disappointing.

I like marching band a lot - I did it myself for four years and competed in a national competition. I don’t think kids who want to do advanced band at W-L should be forced to do it though.

This may actually be your issue. Your view of marching band is the narrow category of bands that focus on competitions. There's another whole group of bands who opt out of field show competitions and focus on other things. I was in a marching band that did zero competitions, but marched in the Rose Bowl Parade, Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, Orange Bowl Parade, Chicago St. Patrick's Day parade, Inauguration parades, NFL half time shows, Nascar races, etc. There were tons of opportunities to do cool performances, but they were spread more evenly over the year and had more flexibility for participation in individual events.

All I'm saying is that there are other models for a successful marching band than the competition model, which has rigid participation needs and a fixed schedule that conflicts with fall sports. Marching band can be "agile" if you don't lock yourself into one concept.

Those opportunities are not just for the grabbing.

What many of us are saying is that there is another perspective: instead of band conflicting with fall sports, fall sports conflict with band. Some actually choose band over a fall sport because they can still choose another sport during winter and/or spring.

And if people suggesting band would be better filled with students who really want to be there, that's what we have now because the students participating are choosing to do so despite other fall season activities. The size and quality of what we have now is a product of the investment and commitment and value APS (and parents) are willing to give the programs.

This is the model now, and the program isn't doing well. It's not a healthy program.

[Anonymous]

I guess the question is would the school symphonic band's non-marching component be better served by not combining the two. If the band is losing a lot of kids who don't want to do marching band, then one question is "is marching band important enough that it is OK that it is weakening the non-marching components of the program?"

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Anonymous wrote:Tough titties to those of you who balk at your kid having to do marching band.

It is a way to ensure that kids are committed to both bands. Many kids think band is something they can skip out on. If you're serious about symphonic band, you would do marching band.

Marching band is treated like a varsity sport. It requires mandatory commitment.

I think what the previous WL band director did was brilliant! Win-win because both bands were great!

Except we don't do this for anything else. Kids can take AP calculus without being on the math team, AP physics without being on the robotics team, why this major extracurricular requirement for advanced band when there is nothing analogous for anything else? What is worst that could happen -- school wouldn't have a marching band? If not enough kids want to do it, maybe that is a fine outcome.

Exactly.

Kids are always expected to show up for music performances. You don't take orchestra and skip the concert. It should just be renamed in the course catalog as We Symphonic/Marching band.

Can someone explain why OP's French horn playing daughter can't play with the school orchestra? That seems like the obvious solution.

Does W-L have a symphonic orchestra?

No the "orchestra" is just a strings ensemble.

Given the demands of her music commitments already and the homework time required (assuming she's taking a good number of intensified classes), she probably doesn't have time to commit to marching band anyway. So, picking a different elective sounds like the better choice. Other music options could be learning a string instrument with orchestra, learning guitar, or sing in chorus.

Wow. That's super disappointing for a school district as large and well resourced as APS. Even my dinky high school had a real orchestra program. They really need to shake up the leadership for the music program. It's embarrassing.

I went to an affluent Southern CA high School with a large, very well regarded music program and it was the same - band and a separate string orchestra. Seems pretty typical. Otherwise you are dividing up your band instrument players across two groups. Alternatively, you have one group that is a full orchestra but that seems less common at high schools. Might have to do it with a smaller music program which might be why your "dinky high School" did it that way.

No. My high school was less than half the size of WL, but had a 300-400 person marching band, depending on the year. More than half the school participated at some point during high school. And we were in New England where big marching bands weren't generally part of the culture. The marching band director and football coach even had a truce where a number of varsity football players would march the halftime show in their football uniforms.

We had a super vibrant music program with a couple of award winning jazz bands, a full orchestra, and a symphonic band. Most of the top musicians played in several groups. (Joining orchestra as a wind, brass or percussion player required an audition). Perhaps it's because I'm from near Boston where there is a strong classical music culture, but I've never heard of a high school not having a full orchestra.

DP. I would say it's because you grew up in an area that had full orchestras. I'm from a small midwest town. High school of 1200, consistent award-winning marching band 135-140. Orchestra program not as strong and just strings. Maybe some percussion? At times, band members were pulled to go help out the orchestra.

It's just done differently in different places.

+1 In Northern Virginia the norm is band and a separate strings orchestra. It's not some sign of a weak program, just the way it's been done here. If you want full orchestra offerings, it looks like you need to move to the Northeast.

A 70 person marching band at a high school the size of Yorktown or WL is absolutely the sign of a weak program. That's super undersized. There just aren't enough kids participating in the music program to even have a quality symphonic band. That isn't how it should be at a large, well resourced high school with so many motivated, high achieving kids.

The pandemic really hurt band and orchestra programs. Many are half the size they were in 2019, some more, some less.

If you have a music student, you have seen this firsthand. If you don't, then you can see it there in the numbers.

if that is the case (and I think it is) I would think the schools would try to encourage kids to continue with music by providing more flexibility for the marching band requirement. Letting more advanced musicians participate in a band for beginners is not really a good alternative -- you would not ask a kid ready for MV calculus to take algebra 1 again just because he does not want to be on the math team.

+1

The marching band requirement is killing participation.

I’d rather see more kids participate in music than force kids to do marching band for “school spirit”.

HSs don’t really need big marching band anyway. Just do a smaller, optional pep rally band.
More fun & mobile.

No more now than 2019. No, the marching band requirement isn't killing anything. But the pandemic, loss of in-person teaching and playing, caused a lot of students to quit. Of those who stuck with it, whether high school kids, middle school, or elementary, the current levels of musicianship are lower overall, too.

During the closures, sports practices continued outdoors. Music lessons didn't. Some students took lessons by zoom, a few took lessons in teachers' yards or private studios. But ensemble playing didn't happen. Across the country, bands and orchestras are smaller now than pre-pandemic. And it will take years to rebuild the pipeline, for those schools that value music and fund elementary school music education (which local school districts are underfunding, more now than than they were pre-pandemic).

More than one thing can be true. Pandemic decreased participation. AND the marching band requirement decreases participation.

My kid stuck with her instrument through the whole pandemic and was really bummed she couldn’t do advanced band at W-L because the marching band requirement conflicted with her fall sport. Same with another kid from her MS.

They could rebuild music (not marching band) faster if they lost the requirement. I hope they do before my next kid starts HS.

The other option is for marching band to find a way to coexist with with other popular high school activities.

+1 DD did W-L marching band and had a good experience and the requirement was never an issue for her. But I do think they could accelerate the band rebuilding without it and if they can't support a full voluntary marching band then should lean into having a fun pep band with the kids who want to do it. DD is continuing band in college but intentionally picked a college where they have pep band, not marching band. She didn't want the time commitment of marching but likes the fun aspect of pep band.

+1

Pep bands are so fun and much less commitment.

This thread is so anti-marching band it's ridiculous.
Marching band is not a form of torture. It can be an absolute blast.

There's absolutely zero reason why a school as large as WL or Yorktown can't support a marching band.

Great. Then we shouldn’t have to force kids to do it.

Just to be clear, no one is being forced. It's an elective for goodness sakes.

They are “forced” to do it if they want to do advanced band.

From some of these responses, the reason that kids don't do marching band and band in school is because they are over scheduled with lots of other curricular activities - marching band is an extra curricular activity at the school. Youth orchestra may be a higher caliber of playing but it cannot compare musically to the intensity of marching band. Parents don't realize that though. Not surprised that the marching bands in APS are small. Just look at the parents.

If you think its so great, you're welcome to make your kid do it. In the meantime, perhaps you should refrain from trying to force that choice on other people's kids just because you think you know better.

The suggestions on this thread have been about making band more compatible with other activities to increase voluntary participation, not conscription. Keep up.

I don't see why band has to become more compatible with other activities. Band is band and if you want to do band, you do band. Nobody is asking rowing to become more compatible with other activities, or any other activity to accommodate another one that conflicts. There is no conscription here, as evidenced by the shrinking WL and YHS bands and expanding WHS band.

A 70 person marching band is not ever going to be very good. Do you have other suggestions to increase participation?

I tend to agree but the Oakton marching band won an award with 75 people in their marching band.