In-bounds verification

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go ahead, report them. You seem to have missed the last half dozen pages. DCPS only cares if parents pay DC income tax at the address used to enroll a student in an IB school, vs. where a family sleeps. Report them for what?

Lying about their address. You seem unclear about the concept.

NP. What's the relevance of the lying and our clarity when DCPS clearly doesn't care? Serious question.

Because it’s illegal. No amount of anyone feeling entitled to send their kid to Brent will change that. The likelihood of getting caught is low, but gl when it happens.

When it happens? Apparently, it doesn't happen. Please explain how parents will get caught for boundary cheating if they file DC taxes at a residential property they own but don't live at, or formally rent out, when both OSSE and DCPS HQ are happy to turn a blind eye.

Fairfax hires a detective agency that uses surveillance vans to follow kids home to bust school residency and boundary cheaters. DC doesn't, end of story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OSSE online tip form for reporting non-residency explicitly states that OSSE does not investigate boundary fraud. If that’s not clear enough, I’m not sure there’s any convincing the posters on this thread.

https://dc-osse-oer.i-sight.com/portal

[i] OSSE does not investigate District of Columbia Public School boundary issues, only issues of non-residency.[i]

I feel like people so dead set on minimizing this have a real lack of understanding of how law enforcement works. If you report a false address and OSSE (or another agency) finds out, they *do not know* you live in the district. Because you have reported a false address, not your actual address. So this becomes a residency investigation. God speed to you if you believe that you can then continue to report your false address to investigators, or that there will be zero repercussions when it is revealed you made a false attestation. No you will not be prosecuted under the residency fraud statute, but you are absolutely smoking something if you don’t understand that law enforcement gets very pissed if you lie.

More to the point, you have a real lack of real understanding how DCPS enrollment works. Own an IB property where you file DC income tax and enroll your kid in your by-right DCPS schools without penalty. That's the system de facto. Nobody much is getting "very pissed" but you and the like-minded on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow, interesting that OSSE doesn't get involved and states this. Seems that DCPS HQ could investigate boundary fraud itself but has made the decision not to put resources into doing so, without advertising it. Gentrifiers with the dough to buy two DC residential properties have figured this much out. The plot thickens.

Let's be clear. It is not just gentrifiers that do this. It is VERY common for long term DC families to use grandma's or aunt's address to send their kids to better neighborhood schools. For every CH family that owns two homes, there is an EOTR (or yes, MD) parent that drives their kids to the neighborhood they grew up in, but can't afford anymore. OSSE knows this, the schools know this, and they have chosen not to enforce with those considerations in mind.

Also note how difficult it would be to actually investigate boundary fraud. Residency must be maintained continuously while enrolled, but boundary only needs to be established as a point in time at the time of initial enrollment. If the family submits adequate documentation for the school to verify IB status at that time, it would be very difficult for OSSE to prove later that they weren't actually living there at that moment in time despite the school having accepted their proof of address. Hypothetically possible, but much more labor intensive for the investigators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go ahead, report them. You seem to have missed the last half dozen pages. DCPS only cares if parents pay DC income tax at the address used to enroll a student in an IB school, vs. where a family sleeps. Report them for what?

Lying about their address. You seem unclear about the concept.

NP. What's the relevance of the lying and our clarity when DCPS clearly doesn't care? Serious question.

Because it’s illegal. No amount of anyone feeling entitled to send their kid to Brent will change that. The likelihood of getting caught is low, but gl when it happens.

When it happens? Apparently, it doesn't happen. Please explain how parents will get caught for boundary cheating if they file DC taxes at a residential property they own but don't live at, or formally rent out, when both OSSE and DCPS HQ are happy to turn a blind eye.

Fairfax hires a detective agency that uses surveillance vans to follow kids home to bust school residency and boundary cheaters. DC doesn't, end of story.

Plenty of ways. More power to you if you cannot envision it. Meanwhile the rest of us who are generally prudent people understand the potential consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OSSE online tip form for reporting non-residency explicitly states that OSSE does not investigate boundary fraud. If that’s not clear enough, I’m not sure there’s any convincing the posters on this thread.

https://dc-osse-oer.i-sight.com/portal

[i] OSSE does not investigate District of Columbia Public School boundary issues, only issues of non-residency.[i]

I feel like people so dead set on minimizing this have a real lack of understanding of how law enforcement works. If you report a false address and OSSE (or another agency) finds out, they *do not know* you live in the district. Because you have reported a false address, not your actual address. So this becomes a residency investigation. God speed to you if you believe that you can then continue to report your false address to investigators, or that there will be zero repercussions when it is revealed you made a false attestation. No you will not be prosecuted under the residency fraud statute, but you are absolutely smoking something if you don’t understand that law enforcement gets very pissed if you lie.

More to the point, you have a real lack of real understanding how DCPS enrollment works. Own an IB property where you file DC income tax and enroll your kid in your by-right DCPS schools without penalty. That's the system de facto. Nobody much is getting "very pissed" but you and the like-minded on DCUM.

You realize that reporting a false address on your taxes is also illegal?

[Anonymous]

Don't take the bait, anybody. Dumb issue from page 1 of this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Go ahead, report them. You seem to have missed the last half dozen pages. DCPS only cares if parents pay DC income tax at the address used to enroll a student in an IB school, vs. where a family sleeps. Report them for what?

Lying about their address. You seem unclear about the concept.

NP. What's the relevance of the lying and our clarity when DCPS clearly doesn't care? Serious question.

Because it’s illegal. No amount of anyone feeling entitled to send their kid to Brent will change that. The likelihood of getting caught is low, but gl when it happens.

When it happens? Apparently, it doesn't happen. Please explain how parents will get caught for boundary cheating if they file DC taxes at a residential property they own but don't live at, or formally rent out, when both OSSE and DCPS HQ are happy to turn a blind eye.

Fairfax hires a detective agency that uses surveillance vans to follow kids home to bust school residency and boundary cheaters. DC doesn't, end of story.

Plenty of ways. More power to you if you cannot envision it. Meanwhile the rest of us who are generally prudent people understand the potential consequences.

I understand the potential consequences: NOTHING. Nothing will happen. This might make you mad, but it’s true. (Does not apply to non-DC residents)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would your kid need to lie about where they live? My kid has friends who don’t live in bounds (they don’t lie about where they live or change the subject so I know where they live) and I assume they lotteried in or used to live in bounds. Are people really out there trying to figure these things out about other people? If so, mind your business.

No shortage of busybody parents of little kids on CH, where my spouse and I have lived for 30 years, particularly in the school communities for the most desirable in-boundary elementary schools (read Brent, Maury, maybe Ludlow).

Just look at the responses to posts that do no more than explain where the boundary "fudging" phenomenon/mentality originates. PPs are called "trash" for their explanations on the assumption that they're boundary cheaters (good chance that they aren't).

We're OOB for Brent, living a couple blocks outside the boundary in NE. We lotteried in late in the game. I find it useful not to talk about where we live w/IB Brent parents.

The harsh reality is that many of the Ward 6 DCPS elementary schools are still fine for ECE and maybe 1st and 2nd grade. But by around 3rd grade high performing kids tend to get bored, there are too many disruptive kids in class, teachers and admins don't always treat white and Asian parents well. Raise issues of concern with teachers and admins, however politely and legitimately, and you may well be treated like an entitled pest.

We know parents who've bailed from JO Wilson, Payne, Watkins and Miner in the lower grades, thrilled to land at thoroughly gentrified Brent, Maury, Ludlow. Who know, maybe some of them are...egad, boundary cheaters owning two Hill houses.

I agree with you about people bailing from JOW, Payne, Watkins and Miner after ECE, and the reasons why. But I know MANY people who have done this and know them well enough to know they are not boundary cheaters. It is much easier to get lottery spots at Ludlow and Brent starting in 2nd or 3rd (and actually I've know quite a few people who have gotten spots at Ludlow in K due to the class size expansion). I know very few people who are wealthy enough to own multiple houses on the Hill and those that do are more likely to go private or can afford to live in their preferred house IB for the school they want (the housing stock IB for Brent/Maury/Ludlow is, on average, nicer than for those other schools except Watkins, it just costs more).

I am extremely sympathetic to people who struggle with finding a good school for their kids and understand all sorts of solutions people come up with. But if I knew someone was boundary cheating in this way, I would distance from them and think less of them. If you have the wealth to afford multiple homes, you have the wealth to come up with an above-board solution to this problem. Choosing to instead cheat the system is scummy, sorry.

No dog in this fight but as somebody who lived on the Hill for 25 years with kids in DCPS, I don't agree. If Hill parents pay their DC taxes, and are here on CH to stay, in my books they're v. welcome to use whatever properties they own as addresses for in-boundary schools. I'm glad that DCPS doesn't go at these people, driving them to go private or move. I'm tired of old friends running to the burbs when they strike out in the original Latin and BASIS lotteries. If a "cheating" family stays for Stuart Hobson, great, do it. You say scummy, some of us say resourceful and determined to stay, great.

You can say that because, presumably, you are happy with where your kids are going to school.

There are many families on the Hill who can't afford to be "resourceful" in this way. I know plenty of families on the Hill who would be irate if their next-door neighbors used this strategy to get their kids into Brent/LT/Maury even though they lived IB for Miner/JOW/Payne/etc. In fact, not only would they be annoyed at the family for lying about their residence, they'd probably be most angry about the fact that this family is IB for a struggling school, but rather than invest in that school and make it better, is just cheating to get into a better school. And while they do that, no one else can live in that IB house, robbing the IB school of the potential for a family that actually gives a damn about it.

If you honestly think most people on the Hill "don't care" or simply admire their neighbors for being resourceful, you are extremely wrong. The lottery system in DC breeds a ton of sour grapes and resentment, and that will absolutely get channeled against families who skirt the rules in order to get their kids into better schools. You might think this is no big deal, but would change your mind if the people who resented you were your direct neighbors and explained to their kids that your kids go to Brent because "their mommy and daddy think it's okay to lie."

Best of luck.

[Anonymous]

Ridiculous. Any OOB family with luck can lottery into Brent past the ECE years - there are spots in every grade from K up and the winners names aren't a matter of public record. As far as the neighbors are concerned, a family living OOB for Brent lotteried in. That's it.

[Anonymous]

Same for Maury and LT. There are a few OOB spots in every grade every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would your kid need to lie about where they live? My kid has friends who don’t live in bounds (they don’t lie about where they live or change the subject so I know where they live) and I assume they lotteried in or used to live in bounds. Are people really out there trying to figure these things out about other people? If so, mind your business.

No shortage of busybody parents of little kids on CH, where my spouse and I have lived for 30 years, particularly in the school communities for the most desirable in-boundary elementary schools (read Brent, Maury, maybe Ludlow).

Just look at the responses to posts that do no more than explain where the boundary "fudging" phenomenon/mentality originates. PPs are called "trash" for their explanations on the assumption that they're boundary cheaters (good chance that they aren't).

We're OOB for Brent, living a couple blocks outside the boundary in NE. We lotteried in late in the game. I find it useful not to talk about where we live w/IB Brent parents.

The harsh reality is that many of the Ward 6 DCPS elementary schools are still fine for ECE and maybe 1st and 2nd grade. But by around 3rd grade high performing kids tend to get bored, there are too many disruptive kids in class, teachers and admins don't always treat white and Asian parents well. Raise issues of concern with teachers and admins, however politely and legitimately, and you may well be treated like an entitled pest.

We know parents who've bailed from JO Wilson, Payne, Watkins and Miner in the lower grades, thrilled to land at thoroughly gentrified Brent, Maury, Ludlow. Who know, maybe some of them are...egad, boundary cheaters owning two Hill houses.

I agree with you about people bailing from JOW, Payne, Watkins and Miner after ECE, and the reasons why. But I know MANY people who have done this and know them well enough to know they are not boundary cheaters. It is much easier to get lottery spots at Ludlow and Brent starting in 2nd or 3rd (and actually I've know quite a few people who have gotten spots at Ludlow in K due to the class size expansion). I know very few people who are wealthy enough to own multiple houses on the Hill and those that do are more likely to go private or can afford to live in their preferred house IB for the school they want (the housing stock IB for Brent/Maury/Ludlow is, on average, nicer than for those other schools except Watkins, it just costs more).

I am extremely sympathetic to people who struggle with finding a good school for their kids and understand all sorts of solutions people come up with. But if I knew someone was boundary cheating in this way, I would distance from them and think less of them. If you have the wealth to afford multiple homes, you have the wealth to come up with an above-board solution to this problem. Choosing to instead cheat the system is scummy, sorry.

No dog in this fight but as somebody who lived on the Hill for 25 years with kids in DCPS, I don't agree. If Hill parents pay their DC taxes, and are here on CH to stay, in my books they're v. welcome to use whatever properties they own as addresses for in-boundary schools. I'm glad that DCPS doesn't go at these people, driving them to go private or move. I'm tired of old friends running to the burbs when they strike out in the original Latin and BASIS lotteries. If a "cheating" family stays for Stuart Hobson, great, do it. You say scummy, some of us say resourceful and determined to stay, great.

You can say that because, presumably, you are happy with where your kids are going to school.

There are many families on the Hill who can't afford to be "resourceful" in this way. I know plenty of families on the Hill who would be irate if their next-door neighbors used this strategy to get their kids into Brent/LT/Maury even though they lived IB for Miner/JOW/Payne/etc. In fact, not only would they be annoyed at the family for lying about their residence, they'd probably be most angry about the fact that this family is IB for a struggling school, but rather than invest in that school and make it better, is just cheating to get into a better school. And while they do that, no one else can live in that IB house, robbing the IB school of the potential for a family that actually gives a damn about it.

If you honestly think most people on the Hill "don't care" or simply admire their neighbors for being resourceful, you are extremely wrong. The lottery system in DC breeds a ton of sour grapes and resentment, and that will absolutely get channeled against families who skirt the rules in order to get their kids into better schools. You might think this is no big deal, but would change your mind if the people who resented you were your direct neighbors and explained to their kids that your kids go to Brent because "their mommy and daddy think it's okay to lie."

Best of luck.

How long have you been on the Hill? A few years? We've been here since the 90s and couldn't disagree more (although we haven't done any boundary cheating, last time I checked). DCPS school options aren't complicated when your kids are in the ECE years and lower grades. Wait a few years. We're thrilled when longtime Hill pals with kids around the ages of ours find ways to stay in the neighborhood, however that works.

PS. We gave up on caring what neighbors might think of us when Bill Clinton was in office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous. Any OOB family with luck can lottery into Brent past the ECE years - there are spots in every grade from K up and the winners names aren't a matter of public record. As far as the neighbors are concerned, a family living OOB for Brent lotteried in. That's it.

This exactly. As long as the school made a waitlist offer for the grade, there's no way to know if they got an OOB lottery seat or used an IB address. Unless you're at Murch or Bancroft or somewhere that has made zero offers for years, how would anyone know unless you told them?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The OSSE online tip form for reporting non-residency explicitly states that OSSE does not investigate boundary fraud. If that’s not clear enough, I’m not sure there’s any convincing the posters on this thread.

https://dc-osse-oer.i-sight.com/portal

[i] OSSE does not investigate District of Columbia Public School boundary issues, only issues of non-residency.[i]

I feel like people so dead set on minimizing this have a real lack of understanding of how law enforcement works. If you report a false address and OSSE (or another agency) finds out, they *do not know* you live in the district. Because you have reported a false address, not your actual address. So this becomes a residency investigation. God speed to you if you believe that you can then continue to report your false address to investigators, or that there will be zero repercussions when it is revealed you made a false attestation. No you will not be prosecuted under the residency fraud statute, but you are absolutely smoking something if you don’t understand that law enforcement gets very pissed if you lie.

More to the point, you have a real lack of real understanding how DCPS enrollment works. Own an IB property where you file DC income tax and enroll your kid in your by-right DCPS schools without penalty. That's the system de facto. Nobody much is getting "very pissed" but you and the like-minded on DCUM.

You realize that reporting a false address on your taxes is also illegal?

I'm honestly trying to understand how this could be a problem. Say you own and/or rent two properties in the District. You file taxes, claim the Homestead Deduction, etc. with one address, and use the second address to enroll in school. If you use your paystub to verify your address with the school, which is the simplest method without using the OTR system (which is only available for re-enrollment), you change your paystub to the second address for a month or two, submit the paystub, then change it back to the first address. You then file your DC taxes under the first address, claim your Homestead Deduction, and OTR has no idea (or would even care?) you changed your address for a month. You're paying DC taxes either way, and the Homestead Deduction is prorated based on whether you apply for it in the first or second half of the year, not based on the exact month. You don't have to file taxes under the second address to enroll as an IB family, you only need a paystub that shows DC tax withholding and that IB address. For all anyone knows, your house was unlivable for that month and you moved into a temporary rental/your second house. Which IS a legitimate way to legally circumvent the boundary rules, and technically by the book as long as you actually lived in the second house when you enrolled in the school.

I think this happens all of the time, and neither OSSE nor OTR give a hoot as long as you still pay your DC taxes and don't actually live in Maryland. What exactly is the legal violation that law enforcement is going to prosecute?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous. Any OOB family with luck can lottery into Brent past the ECE years - there are spots in every grade from K up and the winners names aren't a matter of public record. As far as the neighbors are concerned, a family living OOB for Brent lotteried in. That's it.

"Any OOB with luck" is not equal to "any OOB family." Lots of families strike out year after year. Also, an OOB spot offered in 4th is substantially different from one offered in K or 1st. The higher up in grades you go, the easier it is to lottery. But that means your kid is spending year after year at an IB you don't like.

If it were that easy to lottery into desirable schools, why would anyone bother with boundary cheating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why would your kid need to lie about where they live? My kid has friends who don’t live in bounds (they don’t lie about where they live or change the subject so I know where they live) and I assume they lotteried in or used to live in bounds. Are people really out there trying to figure these things out about other people? If so, mind your business.

No shortage of busybody parents of little kids on CH, where my spouse and I have lived for 30 years, particularly in the school communities for the most desirable in-boundary elementary schools (read Brent, Maury, maybe Ludlow).

Just look at the responses to posts that do no more than explain where the boundary "fudging" phenomenon/mentality originates. PPs are called "trash" for their explanations on the assumption that they're boundary cheaters (good chance that they aren't).

We're OOB for Brent, living a couple blocks outside the boundary in NE. We lotteried in late in the game. I find it useful not to talk about where we live w/IB Brent parents.

The harsh reality is that many of the Ward 6 DCPS elementary schools are still fine for ECE and maybe 1st and 2nd grade. But by around 3rd grade high performing kids tend to get bored, there are too many disruptive kids in class, teachers and admins don't always treat white and Asian parents well. Raise issues of concern with teachers and admins, however politely and legitimately, and you may well be treated like an entitled pest.

We know parents who've bailed from JO Wilson, Payne, Watkins and Miner in the lower grades, thrilled to land at thoroughly gentrified Brent, Maury, Ludlow. Who know, maybe some of them are...egad, boundary cheaters owning two Hill houses.

I agree with you about people bailing from JOW, Payne, Watkins and Miner after ECE, and the reasons why. But I know MANY people who have done this and know them well enough to know they are not boundary cheaters. It is much easier to get lottery spots at Ludlow and Brent starting in 2nd or 3rd (and actually I've know quite a few people who have gotten spots at Ludlow in K due to the class size expansion). I know very few people who are wealthy enough to own multiple houses on the Hill and those that do are more likely to go private or can afford to live in their preferred house IB for the school they want (the housing stock IB for Brent/Maury/Ludlow is, on average, nicer than for those other schools except Watkins, it just costs more).

I am extremely sympathetic to people who struggle with finding a good school for their kids and understand all sorts of solutions people come up with. But if I knew someone was boundary cheating in this way, I would distance from them and think less of them. If you have the wealth to afford multiple homes, you have the wealth to come up with an above-board solution to this problem. Choosing to instead cheat the system is scummy, sorry.

No dog in this fight but as somebody who lived on the Hill for 25 years with kids in DCPS, I don't agree. If Hill parents pay their DC taxes, and are here on CH to stay, in my books they're v. welcome to use whatever properties they own as addresses for in-boundary schools. I'm glad that DCPS doesn't go at these people, driving them to go private or move. I'm tired of old friends running to the burbs when they strike out in the original Latin and BASIS lotteries. If a "cheating" family stays for Stuart Hobson, great, do it. You say scummy, some of us say resourceful and determined to stay, great.

You can say that because, presumably, you are happy with where your kids are going to school.

There are many families on the Hill who can't afford to be "resourceful" in this way. I know plenty of families on the Hill who would be irate if their next-door neighbors used this strategy to get their kids into Brent/LT/Maury even though they lived IB for Miner/JOW/Payne/etc. In fact, not only would they be annoyed at the family for lying about their residence, they'd probably be most angry about the fact that this family is IB for a struggling school, but rather than invest in that school and make it better, is just cheating to get into a better school. And while they do that, no one else can live in that IB house, robbing the IB school of the potential for a family that actually gives a damn about it.

If you honestly think most people on the Hill "don't care" or simply admire their neighbors for being resourceful, you are extremely wrong. The lottery system in DC breeds a ton of sour grapes and resentment, and that will absolutely get channeled against families who skirt the rules in order to get their kids into better schools. You might think this is no big deal, but would change your mind if the people who resented you were your direct neighbors and explained to their kids that your kids go to Brent because "their mommy and daddy think it's okay to lie."

Best of luck.

How long have you been on the Hill? A few years? We've been here since the 90s and couldn't disagree more (although we haven't done any boundary cheating, last time I checked). DCPS school options aren't complicated when your kids are in the ECE years and lower grades. Wait a few years. We're thrilled when longtime Hill pals with kids around the ages of ours find ways to stay in the neighborhood, however that works.

PS. We gave up on caring what neighbors might think of us when Bill Clinton was in office.

I've lived on the Hill for 13 years and I strongly disagree with you. If you've been here since the 90s, do you even have elementary age kids? I'm guessing no. So *of course* you don't care -- it doesn't impact you. But yes, 100%, people with kids currently in school care about this and will resent neighbors who cheat to escape an IB they don't like. People on the Hill who attend IB schools (outside of Brent/Maury/LT) want people to invest in their IB, because that's there their kids go. They will accept that some families lottery out of the IB to a charter or another DCPS. But if they learn or even suspect that a family simply used an address they don't live at to get into one of the aforementioned schools?

Yes, they will resent you, and they will view you as stealing something from them. Because you're an IB family who might have made their kid's school better, and instead you cheated to go elsewhere. You can justify it anyway you want, you can decide you don't care what the neighbors think. But you can't claim that people truly don't mind, won't resent you, and won't express their resentment to their kids or their friends.

You might think that's unreasonable, but it's just a fact that people will absolutely hold this against you if they know. They might not find out, and maybe you just like and say you got in via lottery and tell your kids the same. If they knew, they'd hold it against you.