In-bounds verification

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On a practical level, DCPS can't simply ignore the reality that families owning multiple residential properties can and sometimes do select one as an enrollment address in-boundary even if they don't sleep there, or don't sleep there most the time. Ed leaders of course must decide where to put scarce taxpayer resources in the ed domain. They turn a blind eye to boundary cheating on the part of owners of multiple residences because cracking down on them would be expensive and v. difficult. What are arguing here? That DCPS should copy Fairfax and tony suburbs of other big cities around the country by hiring detective companies to pursue boundary cheaters? You want DCPS resources to be committed to expensive and complicated boundary fraud crackdowns? You also want poor families who shuffle kids between relatives across boundaries on a regular basis to be compelled to ensure that the kids sleep at one residence X number of days in the year to qualify to be enrolled from that residence? I've seen rules on public school enrollment written that way, and enforced, in upscale jurisdictions in other Metro areas. In a nutshell, from a legal standpoint, DCPS can't crack down on well-off boundary cheaters without going at the poors, too. What they do is require multiple tax returns at one address to clear boundary cheaters who are investigated for residency fraud. That's probably the best they can do under the circumstances without going the pricey hire-detective-agencies route, a political hot potato because of the complicated residency profiles of many of the poors. It seems like a sustainable compromise under the circumstances.

No one is advocating for hiring detective agencies or spending more money on enforcement.

We are saying that people who do this are boundary cheats. It is not within the rules of the system. People who do this are lying on forms and to school officials. Whether OSSE pursues it is another matter. It's cheating.

Right, they're boundary cheats. But since they're boundary cheats who who they aren't going to be challenged or punished by city officials, they pay taxes, have moxie, and decent DCPS schools are in v. short supply, they're unstoppable. You don't seem to be accomplishing a thing by pointing out that they're cheating or scolding them to stop. It's a stupid waste of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are just as likely to get prosecuted for lying about your middle name on that form as you are lying about your address, provided you actually do live in DC.

It's also a crime to walk your dog in various public parks in DC, or at least in swathes of them. It's even a crime to cultivate vegetables in the tree box between your house and the street and to play stickball in a public alley.

If nobody's going to prosecute anybody for activities that are technically crimes, the acts have been decriminalized to the point of not being relevant. You can't change that by coming here trying to scare fellow parents into believing otherwise.

I mean, I also have issues with the many people who run dogs off leash in non-dog-parks in DC. Just because this never gets prosecuted doesn't mean it's a great behavior that we all have to endorse. The vegetable and "stickball" laws are obviously out of date and should be repealed, but don't have much to do with the conversation at hand.

The point is that you can claim that boundary fraud is fine because OSSE doesn't prosecute it, but most of us don't base our moral standards on "what OSSE will prosecute." There are LOTS of immoral things you can do that no one ever prosecutes you for.

Do it if you want, you probably won't go to jail or even get kicked out of the school you are lying your way into. Take your poorly trained dog to the park without a leash and sneer at anyone who tells you to leash it, nothing will happen to you if you do that, either. But you will be a liar and an a$$hole. Apparently that doesn't matter to you.

The situation is not "OSSE doesn't prosecute boundary fraud", it's "OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud, and OSSE also doesn't try to bring legal penalties against people for lying on a form in ways that are not material." (With address being nonmaterial for DC residents because, again, OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud.) These are actually different things.

Are you actually trying to argue that boundary fraud simply doesn't exist? In that case why do we even have school boundaries? Why is anyone give "in-boundary" preference in the PK lottery? Why would schools ask for your address before enrolling your student, to ensure that it is your "by right" school. What does "by right" even mean, since apparently it doesn't matter?

You sound insane. It's one thing to argue that boundary fraud isn't prosecuted and therefore is fairly easy to get away with. I'd agree with you there. It is nuts to argue that boundary fraud simply does not exist.

There are boundaries. You are required to RESIDE within the boundaries in order to enroll your child without winning a lottery spot. You know this and I know this, which is why if you want to commit boundary fraud, you have to make sure you can pick up mail at that address you listed and give the minimal appearance that you live there, even if only claiming you live there on enrollment forms that ask you to list your address.

God sometimes I hate living in a city full of lawyers with personality disorders. It makes everything so much harder than it needs to be.

OSSE never uses the phrase "boundary fraud". So where's the law defining boundary fraud and the penalties for it? You seem really sure this exists, so find the law.

The fraud is lying on the form. As has been repeated to you ad nauseum.

Lying on a form is not inherently "fraud". That's not what that word means. I don't even think this is a good behavior - it's cheating and it's unfair. But this childlike insistence that this thing you don't like must be illegal is just bizarre.

[Anonymous]

What we need is a competent Mayor and a competent OSSE.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a gray area, especially if parents continue using the original address with DCPS. But if you own residential DC real estate that you don’t formally rent out, do what you want when registering in boundary. Just make sure that you pick up mail at the property you use for school residency regularly. In our experience, things will work out if you cover your bases on the residency docs and mail collection fronts. Asking permission from DCPS is the last thing you want to do, OP. Opening that can of worms would be naive and dumb.

Translation: If you commit residency fraud, don’t tell anyone and cover your tracks.

Same advice that criminals follow.

So get those boundary cheating criminals arrested then. Report them! Lobby for them to be busted, fine, jailed.

So nobody have anything better to worry about? These parents own these properties so they pick up mail at them if they wish. For all you know, they lived in the properties whose addresses they use for enrollment at the time of enrollment. Yawn.

DC, after year of complaints about out of state students, finally cracked down in roughly 2015-2016.

A Maryland couple who fraudulently enrolled three children in top D.C. public schools for a decade must pay the city more than $500,000 in fines, Attorney General Karl Racine announced Thursday.
The parents, both D.C. police officers, lived at various locations in Maryland and Virginia while their children attended D.C. schools between 2003 and 2013, according to the attorney general’s office. The husband owned a home in Northeast that he rented to tenants, using that address to enroll the couple’s children in some of the city’s most coveted public schools — a violation of city law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/md-family-that-sent-kids-to-dc-public-schools-must-pay-more-than-500000-fine/2016/07/28/b7f3656c-54eb-11e6-b7de-dfe509430c39_story.html

Seems like you can't claim an address that you rent out as your primary residence. As quoted, a violation of city laws.

The larger problem is that DC looked into this once and tried to make a statement with fines. The problem is there is no enforcement now.

Wow. Some posters on this thread could be looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. I wonder if the AG’s office is reading this?

That was residency fraud. They lived in Maryland.

+1. Posters are still conflating residency and boundary. They can and do come after residency fraud. They do not come after boundary fraud.

You’re really missing the point. YES DC cares most about residency fraud. Which means that they will increasingly investigate it, including by using more sophisticated data approaches that identify students who do not appear to live at the OSSE provided address through matching up other addresses used by the parent in many other datasets (mail, subscriptions, court records, car registrations, etc.) Once they suspect you listed a fake address what do you think happens? They investigate you. Because you listed a fake address and they do not know if you live in DC or MD. Because again, to repeat, you listed a fake address. And this is the point where you decide whether to double down on your lie or confess that you lied on the form, the form that you signed and attested to its truthfulness.

You are missing the point. There is no consequence for this for boundary fraud, except possibly losing your feeder pattern. There is a consequence for residency fraud.

Exactly. If they investigated, it would end when OSSE determines you are a DC resident paying DC taxes. OSSE isn't investigating where you actually live, they're investigating if you're a DC resident. The school would be the ones that would have to investigate your actual address, and again, they accepted your verification documents at the time of enrollment and there is no mechanism in place for schools to do address verification investigations once they accept your verification documents. If you walked into the front office and told your school registrar you committed boundary fraud, then maybe they'd send you back to your IB school. But there is no DCPS investigation process for boundary fraud and OSSE doesn't care as long as you pay DC taxes.

OSSE cares if you lied on a form you swore was truthful…

I’ve been getting away with it for a long time. Three kids through DCPS elementary school. You have until June to catch me.

You must be proud.

Cheat on your taxes too?

Nah, too rich to mess around with something that actually has consequences. So sad for you that fudging an address doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are just as likely to get prosecuted for lying about your middle name on that form as you are lying about your address, provided you actually do live in DC.

It's also a crime to walk your dog in various public parks in DC, or at least in swathes of them. It's even a crime to cultivate vegetables in the tree box between your house and the street and to play stickball in a public alley.

If nobody's going to prosecute anybody for activities that are technically crimes, the acts have been decriminalized to the point of not being relevant. You can't change that by coming here trying to scare fellow parents into believing otherwise.

I mean, I also have issues with the many people who run dogs off leash in non-dog-parks in DC. Just because this never gets prosecuted doesn't mean it's a great behavior that we all have to endorse. The vegetable and "stickball" laws are obviously out of date and should be repealed, but don't have much to do with the conversation at hand.

The point is that you can claim that boundary fraud is fine because OSSE doesn't prosecute it, but most of us don't base our moral standards on "what OSSE will prosecute." There are LOTS of immoral things you can do that no one ever prosecutes you for.

Do it if you want, you probably won't go to jail or even get kicked out of the school you are lying your way into. Take your poorly trained dog to the park without a leash and sneer at anyone who tells you to leash it, nothing will happen to you if you do that, either. But you will be a liar and an a$$hole. Apparently that doesn't matter to you.

The situation is not "OSSE doesn't prosecute boundary fraud", it's "OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud, and OSSE also doesn't try to bring legal penalties against people for lying on a form in ways that are not material." (With address being nonmaterial for DC residents because, again, OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud.) These are actually different things.

Are you actually trying to argue that boundary fraud simply doesn't exist? In that case why do we even have school boundaries? Why is anyone give "in-boundary" preference in the PK lottery? Why would schools ask for your address before enrolling your student, to ensure that it is your "by right" school. What does "by right" even mean, since apparently it doesn't matter?

You sound insane. It's one thing to argue that boundary fraud isn't prosecuted and therefore is fairly easy to get away with. I'd agree with you there. It is nuts to argue that boundary fraud simply does not exist.

There are boundaries. You are required to RESIDE within the boundaries in order to enroll your child without winning a lottery spot. You know this and I know this, which is why if you want to commit boundary fraud, you have to make sure you can pick up mail at that address you listed and give the minimal appearance that you live there, even if only claiming you live there on enrollment forms that ask you to list your address.

God sometimes I hate living in a city full of lawyers with personality disorders. It makes everything so much harder than it needs to be.

OSSE never uses the phrase "boundary fraud". So where's the law defining boundary fraud and the penalties for it? You seem really sure this exists, so find the law.

The fraud is lying on the form. As has been repeated to you ad nauseum.

Lying on a form is not inherently "fraud". That's not what that word means. I don't even think this is a good behavior - it's cheating and it's unfair. But this childlike insistence that this thing you don't like must be illegal is just bizarre.

Have trouble with reading comprehension?

It is illegal.

[Anonymous]

This is truly the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Perhaps it's time for Jeff to shut it down...

[Anonymous]

’ . I’ve been getting away with it for a long time. Three kids through DCPS elementary school. You have until June to catch me.

Are you proud of this? If so, why? I'm confident you will not be caught. This is one of the problems with DC.

Violent crime is up by 40% this year. Criminals are caught and released overnight.

DC doesn't care if you cheat IB school rules. DC don't care that residents of VA or MD kids attend DCPS schools and don't pay the proper tuition. DC doesn't care if they let criminals walk the streets hours after they were arrested.

DC set the example. I would assume that is why you cheat the system. There will be no consequences if you are caught.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s a gray area, especially if parents continue using the original address with DCPS. But if you own residential DC real estate that you don’t formally rent out, do what you want when registering in boundary. Just make sure that you pick up mail at the property you use for school residency regularly. In our experience, things will work out if you cover your bases on the residency docs and mail collection fronts. Asking permission from DCPS is the last thing you want to do, OP. Opening that can of worms would be naive and dumb.

Translation: If you commit residency fraud, don’t tell anyone and cover your tracks.

Same advice that criminals follow.

So get those boundary cheating criminals arrested then. Report them! Lobby for them to be busted, fine, jailed.

So nobody have anything better to worry about? These parents own these properties so they pick up mail at them if they wish. For all you know, they lived in the properties whose addresses they use for enrollment at the time of enrollment. Yawn.

DC, after year of complaints about out of state students, finally cracked down in roughly 2015-2016.

A Maryland couple who fraudulently enrolled three children in top D.C. public schools for a decade must pay the city more than $500,000 in fines, Attorney General Karl Racine announced Thursday.
The parents, both D.C. police officers, lived at various locations in Maryland and Virginia while their children attended D.C. schools between 2003 and 2013, according to the attorney general’s office. The husband owned a home in Northeast that he rented to tenants, using that address to enroll the couple’s children in some of the city’s most coveted public schools — a violation of city law.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/md-family-that-sent-kids-to-dc-public-schools-must-pay-more-than-500000-fine/2016/07/28/b7f3656c-54eb-11e6-b7de-dfe509430c39_story.html

Seems like you can't claim an address that you rent out as your primary residence. As quoted, a violation of city laws.

The larger problem is that DC looked into this once and tried to make a statement with fines. The problem is there is no enforcement now.

Wow. Some posters on this thread could be looking at hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines. I wonder if the AG’s office is reading this?

That was residency fraud. They lived in Maryland.

+1. Posters are still conflating residency and boundary. They can and do come after residency fraud. They do not come after boundary fraud.

You’re really missing the point. YES DC cares most about residency fraud. Which means that they will increasingly investigate it, including by using more sophisticated data approaches that identify students who do not appear to live at the OSSE provided address through matching up other addresses used by the parent in many other datasets (mail, subscriptions, court records, car registrations, etc.) Once they suspect you listed a fake address what do you think happens? They investigate you. Because you listed a fake address and they do not know if you live in DC or MD. Because again, to repeat, you listed a fake address. And this is the point where you decide whether to double down on your lie or confess that you lied on the form, the form that you signed and attested to its truthfulness.

You are missing the point. There is no consequence for this for boundary fraud, except possibly losing your feeder pattern. There is a consequence for residency fraud.

Exactly. If they investigated, it would end when OSSE determines you are a DC resident paying DC taxes. OSSE isn't investigating where you actually live, they're investigating if you're a DC resident. The school would be the ones that would have to investigate your actual address, and again, they accepted your verification documents at the time of enrollment and there is no mechanism in place for schools to do address verification investigations once they accept your verification documents. If you walked into the front office and told your school registrar you committed boundary fraud, then maybe they'd send you back to your IB school. But there is no DCPS investigation process for boundary fraud and OSSE doesn't care as long as you pay DC taxes.

OSSE cares if you lied on a form you swore was truthful…

I’ve been getting away with it for a long time. Three kids through DCPS elementary school. You have until June to catch me.

Three year statute of limitations.

You will be looking over your shoulder until June 2027.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is truly the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Perhaps it's time for Jeff to shut it down...

No, we need to collect more IP addresses for residency/boundary cheaters.

-OSSE/AG's office

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is truly the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Perhaps it's time for Jeff to shut it down...

No, we need to collect more IP addresses for residency/boundary cheaters.

-OSSE/AG's office

Lol!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is truly the thread that never ends. It goes on and on my friends. Perhaps it's time for Jeff to shut it down...

No, we need to collect more IP addresses for residency/boundary cheaters.

-OSSE/AG's office

I want to live in your fantasy world with that kind of state capacity. They don't even send people to take pictures of Maryland license plates outside schools during dropoff.

[Anonymous]

DC Government Chooses Maryland Kids Over Tax-Paying Residents For School Slots

https://dailycaller.com/2016/07/10/dc-government-chooses-maryland-kids-over-tax-paying-residents-for-school-slots/

This just continues without any DC enforcement. Maryland and Virginia tagged cars show up every day at our locals.

These parents appear to be ripping off taxpayers with the full knowledge and blessing of local education officials. This is a separate and in some ways more troubling phenomenon than the cheating in which Maryland residents lie about their addresses in order to steal slots at D.C. schools.

In 2015, 49 students from Maryland attended D.C. schools on a non-fraudulent basis, being open about where they lived, in exchange for D.C. charging them a combined $564,000 in tuition. But District officials collected less than half of that amount — $213,000 — according to a government audit.

The schools included Banneker, Basis Public Charter, Duke Ellington, School Without Walls High, Deal Middle, and Sela Public Charter.

Ellington has 525 students and 40 — nearly a tenth of the school — disclose they live in Maryland. Those students’ families owed a total of $463,200 in tuition, but local officials collected only $163,249, or 35 percent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are just as likely to get prosecuted for lying about your middle name on that form as you are lying about your address, provided you actually do live in DC.

It's also a crime to walk your dog in various public parks in DC, or at least in swathes of them. It's even a crime to cultivate vegetables in the tree box between your house and the street and to play stickball in a public alley.

If nobody's going to prosecute anybody for activities that are technically crimes, the acts have been decriminalized to the point of not being relevant. You can't change that by coming here trying to scare fellow parents into believing otherwise.

I mean, I also have issues with the many people who run dogs off leash in non-dog-parks in DC. Just because this never gets prosecuted doesn't mean it's a great behavior that we all have to endorse. The vegetable and "stickball" laws are obviously out of date and should be repealed, but don't have much to do with the conversation at hand.

The point is that you can claim that boundary fraud is fine because OSSE doesn't prosecute it, but most of us don't base our moral standards on "what OSSE will prosecute." There are LOTS of immoral things you can do that no one ever prosecutes you for.

Do it if you want, you probably won't go to jail or even get kicked out of the school you are lying your way into. Take your poorly trained dog to the park without a leash and sneer at anyone who tells you to leash it, nothing will happen to you if you do that, either. But you will be a liar and an a$$hole. Apparently that doesn't matter to you.

The situation is not "OSSE doesn't prosecute boundary fraud", it's "OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud, and OSSE also doesn't try to bring legal penalties against people for lying on a form in ways that are not material." (With address being nonmaterial for DC residents because, again, OSSE doesn't recognize the existence of boundary fraud.) These are actually different things.

Are you actually trying to argue that boundary fraud simply doesn't exist? In that case why do we even have school boundaries? Why is anyone give "in-boundary" preference in the PK lottery? Why would schools ask for your address before enrolling your student, to ensure that it is your "by right" school. What does "by right" even mean, since apparently it doesn't matter?

You sound insane. It's one thing to argue that boundary fraud isn't prosecuted and therefore is fairly easy to get away with. I'd agree with you there. It is nuts to argue that boundary fraud simply does not exist.

There are boundaries. You are required to RESIDE within the boundaries in order to enroll your child without winning a lottery spot. You know this and I know this, which is why if you want to commit boundary fraud, you have to make sure you can pick up mail at that address you listed and give the minimal appearance that you live there, even if only claiming you live there on enrollment forms that ask you to list your address.

God sometimes I hate living in a city full of lawyers with personality disorders. It makes everything so much harder than it needs to be.

OSSE never uses the phrase "boundary fraud". So where's the law defining boundary fraud and the penalties for it? You seem really sure this exists, so find the law.

The fraud is lying on the form. As has been repeated to you ad nauseum.

Lying on a form is not inherently "fraud". That's not what that word means. I don't even think this is a good behavior - it's cheating and it's unfair. But this childlike insistence that this thing you don't like must be illegal is just bizarre.

Lying on a government form to obtain a benefit isn’t fraud? GL!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC Government Chooses Maryland Kids Over Tax-Paying Residents For School Slots

https://dailycaller.com/2016/07/10/dc-government-chooses-maryland-kids-over-tax-paying-residents-for-school-slots/

This just continues without any DC enforcement. Maryland and Virginia tagged cars show up every day at our locals.

These parents appear to be ripping off taxpayers with the full knowledge and blessing of local education officials. This is a separate and in some ways more troubling phenomenon than the cheating in which Maryland residents lie about their addresses in order to steal slots at D.C. schools.

In 2015, 49 students from Maryland attended D.C. schools on a non-fraudulent basis, being open about where they lived, in exchange for D.C. charging them a combined $564,000 in tuition. But District officials collected less than half of that amount — $213,000 — according to a government audit.

The schools included Banneker, Basis Public Charter, Duke Ellington, School Without Walls High, Deal Middle, and Sela Public Charter.

Ellington has 525 students and 40 — nearly a tenth of the school — disclose they live in Maryland. Those students’ families owed a total of $463,200 in tuition, but local officials collected only $163,249, or 35 percent.

Are these families receiving bills in the mail and refusing to pay? Or is DC simply not requesting payment? Because if it's the latter, then it's not the families' fault, is it?

My kids go to school in MCPS, so I have no dog in this fight, but I hope you're not hating on every license plate. Some of these people are probably entirely above board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC Government Chooses Maryland Kids Over Tax-Paying Residents For School Slots

https://dailycaller.com/2016/07/10/dc-government-chooses-maryland-kids-over-tax-paying-residents-for-school-slots/

This just continues without any DC enforcement. Maryland and Virginia tagged cars show up every day at our locals.

These parents appear to be ripping off taxpayers with the full knowledge and blessing of local education officials. This is a separate and in some ways more troubling phenomenon than the cheating in which Maryland residents lie about their addresses in order to steal slots at D.C. schools.

In 2015, 49 students from Maryland attended D.C. schools on a non-fraudulent basis, being open about where they lived, in exchange for D.C. charging them a combined $564,000 in tuition. But District officials collected less than half of that amount — $213,000 — according to a government audit.

The schools included Banneker, Basis Public Charter, Duke Ellington, School Without Walls High, Deal Middle, and Sela Public Charter.

Ellington has 525 students and 40 — nearly a tenth of the school — disclose they live in Maryland. Those students’ families owed a total of $463,200 in tuition, but local officials collected only $163,249, or 35 percent.

Are these families receiving bills in the mail and refusing to pay? Or is DC simply not requesting payment? Because if it's the latter, then it's not the families' fault, is it?

My kids go to school in MCPS, so I have no dog in this fight, but I hope you're not hating on every license plate. Some of these people are probably entirely above board.

Why would you invent some scenario that they're not getting a bill? So many freaks of natures on this board.