NVSL Seeding is out!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our hoa, little rocky run, has 2800 households with automatic number of pool memberships. If it was just about numbers, we would be competitive in D1.

that gets to a fundamental difference between a place like Overlee. At LRR, you are automatically in whether you really care or not, and whether or not you have young children. At Overlee, you had to get on their waitlist before your kid was born.

I do also find it odd, that looking at a map of NVSL pools (https://www.mynvsl.com/file/31348/NVSL_Map_of_102_Teams_updated_pdf) , all D1 teams are clustered together in the North Arlington/Falls Church/Mclean area.

[Anonymous]

But if it was just numbers with no recruiting or shenanigans, mathematically you would have better swimmers on a team drawing from 2800 households versus just 800.

[Anonymous]

All this accusing all D1 teams of recruiting or “shenanigans” is bizarre. The Chesterbrook 2019 is messed up but that seems to be an outlier.
Looking at Overlee’s top age group boy’s relay team from last year, 3 of them started swimming at overlee no later than age 8. The 4th started as a 10 year old. Do you think they are reaching out to the parents of promising 7 year olds?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our hoa, little rocky run, has 2800 households with automatic number of pool memberships. If it was just about numbers, we would be competitive in D1.

that gets to a fundamental difference between a place like Overlee. At LRR, you are automatically in whether you really care or not, and whether or not you have young children. At Overlee, you had to get on their waitlist before your kid was born.

I do also find it odd, that looking at a map of NVSL pools (https://www.mynvsl.com/file/31348/NVSL_Map_of_102_Teams_updated_pdf) , all D1 teams are clustered together in the North Arlington/Falls Church/Mclean area.

That's where all the dishonest lobbyist and BigLaw types can afford to live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe I'm defending chesterbrook- but you have proved nothing. There is no restriction in NVSL rules for swimming for the NVSL and another league, indeed many kids do this to swim long course with their club teams and swim summer league. Sure its a little odd that he was swimming for 2 different rec leagues so far apart (its a long way from PG county to mclean)- but as long as his family had a bona fide membership at both clubs he's not breaking any rules. Perhaps the parents are split and he divided his time between mclean and PG county.

First - year round (club swim) and summer swim are two different things. And, no one ever said you can't do both.

This is about the fact he was swimming for 2 different summer leagues at once. You are correct, there is nothing in the rules that states you can't swim for more than one summer league. The only restriction NVSL places is you can't swim for 2 different teams that are a part of the NVSL league. The interesting thing is he ONLY swam for them in 2019. He never swam for them before or after. He has no other time records in the NVSL database. Why would he only swim with them for 1 year? Chesterbrook needed him and his times. Just because he wasn't technically breaking the rules, doesn't make it right.

It goes against the principles of rec league, you know community based fun swimming. Swimming for two rec leagues is BS when he did not have ongoing relationship with one of them.

Also, NVSL states that you have to have a family membership with the pool in order to swim there and most require you to live in the house.

D1 is not really rec league

The entire league is REC league. Just because some teams have managed to cheat the system doesn't mean they are exempt from the rules.

Unless you believe that three pools just happen to produce the best swimmers from their membership year after year for decades, it's pretty obvious that it isn't a rec league at the top

like another poster already pointed out, what really makes these top 3 pools so good every year is their membership size is so much bigger than other pools in the NVSL. So even though our lower division pool may be able to beat them in a few cohorts (e.g 8u boys), these top teams consistently have so much depth they will dominate us in a meet. Even if you think Chesterbrook cheated here (i agree this does go against the spirit of the league), I don't believe cheating is rampant at these pools.

There memberships aren't really that much larger than other pools and certainly not enough to explain their results. The top 5 or 6 divisions are packed with similar sized pools, but these three win ever year

I can't really debate this since I don't know where to find all the data on pool membership size. Someone earlier mentioned that Overlee has over 800 families. That is well more than double the size of our pool (Div 3). Also, I have been to both Overlee and Chesterbrook (but not Tuckahoe) for non-swim league things. Their facilities are massive compared to ours. They both have a secondary pool that i think could probably host a meet without even using their larger pool.

It's all in the bylaws!

Overlee - capped 800 families, summer memberships allowed
Tuckahoe - capped to 3250 people, so ~ 800 families, temporary memberships allowed
chesterbrook - capped to 550 families, summer memberships allowed
Donaldson - capped to 650 families, summer memberships allowed
Highlands - capped to 500 families, summer memberships allowed
Mclean - capped to 450-500 families, renting out memberships allowed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All this accusing all D1 teams of recruiting or “shenanigans” is bizarre. The Chesterbrook 2019 is messed up but that seems to be an outlier.
Looking at Overlee’s top age group boy’s relay team from last year, 3 of them started swimming at overlee no later than age 8. The 4th started as a 10 year old. Do you think they are reaching out to the parents of promising 7 year olds?

Do you have a way of explaining what a appears to be a ridiculous statistical anomaly? These pools have been dominant for decades, that shouldn't happen unless they recruit

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All this accusing all D1 teams of recruiting or “shenanigans” is bizarre. The Chesterbrook 2019 is messed up but that seems to be an outlier.
Looking at Overlee’s top age group boy’s relay team from last year, 3 of them started swimming at overlee no later than age 8. The 4th started as a 10 year old. Do you think they are reaching out to the parents of promising 7 year olds?

YES

[Anonymous]

It’s interesting how 12 pages of an NVSL Seeding thread covers Division 1 almost exclusively.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our hoa, little rocky run, has 2800 households with automatic number of pool memberships. If it was just about numbers, we would be competitive in D1.

that gets to a fundamental difference between a place like Overlee. At LRR, you are automatically in whether you really care or not, and whether or not you have young children. At Overlee, you had to get on their waitlist before your kid was born.

I do also find it odd, that looking at a map of NVSL pools (https://www.mynvsl.com/file/31348/NVSL_Map_of_102_Teams_updated_pdf) , all D1 teams are clustered together in the North Arlington/Falls Church/Mclean area.

That's where all the dishonest lobbyist and BigLaw types can afford to live.

It makes sense that the wealthiest regions have the best teams. Better coaching, more parental time/money for private coaching, higher likelihood that kids are swimming for a year round club or getting year round swim instruction, higher likelihood that younger kids have been in swim lessons since they were babies, history of success puts more pressure for families with young kids to get year round swim instruction so they have an advantage when they start competing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this accusing all D1 teams of recruiting or “shenanigans” is bizarre. The Chesterbrook 2019 is messed up but that seems to be an outlier.
Looking at Overlee’s top age group boy’s relay team from last year, 3 of them started swimming at overlee no later than age 8. The 4th started as a 10 year old. Do you think they are reaching out to the parents of promising 7 year olds?

YES

No. However, when your pool has such a strong swim club culture, your members want to be a part of it. We are at one of the top 3 and every kid we know was on swim team in their younger year......every kid. We were all encouraged to keep our kids in swim and join a club. Those that did, got better and better. Being a Saturday swimmer at our pool was a lot of fun. Being a Monday swimmer was much less fun. So, there was an incentive to join one of the clubs and that results in a stronger team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All this accusing all D1 teams of recruiting or “shenanigans” is bizarre. The Chesterbrook 2019 is messed up but that seems to be an outlier.
Looking at Overlee’s top age group boy’s relay team from last year, 3 of them started swimming at overlee no later than age 8. The 4th started as a 10 year old. Do you think they are reaching out to the parents of promising 7 year olds?

YES

No. However, when your pool has such a strong swim club culture, your members want to be a part of it. We are at one of the top 3 and every kid we know was on swim team in their younger year......every kid. We were all encouraged to keep our kids in swim and join a club. Those that did, got better and better. Being a Saturday swimmer at our pool was a lot of fun. Being a Monday swimmer was much less fun. So, there was an incentive to join one of the clubs and that results in a stronger team.

OMG please tell me which kids are bragging about being in a “top 3” summer swim team - the kids at NCSAs this weekend? I think not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe I'm defending chesterbrook- but you have proved nothing. There is no restriction in NVSL rules for swimming for the NVSL and another league, indeed many kids do this to swim long course with their club teams and swim summer league. Sure its a little odd that he was swimming for 2 different rec leagues so far apart (its a long way from PG county to mclean)- but as long as his family had a bona fide membership at both clubs he's not breaking any rules. Perhaps the parents are split and he divided his time between mclean and PG county.

First - year round (club swim) and summer swim are two different things. And, no one ever said you can't do both.

This is about the fact he was swimming for 2 different summer leagues at once. You are correct, there is nothing in the rules that states you can't swim for more than one summer league. The only restriction NVSL places is you can't swim for 2 different teams that are a part of the NVSL league. The interesting thing is he ONLY swam for them in 2019. He never swam for them before or after. He has no other time records in the NVSL database. Why would he only swim with them for 1 year? Chesterbrook needed him and his times. Just because he wasn't technically breaking the rules, doesn't make it right.

It goes against the principles of rec league, you know community based fun swimming. Swimming for two rec leagues is BS when he did not have ongoing relationship with one of them.

Also, NVSL states that you have to have a family membership with the pool in order to swim there and most require you to live in the house.

D1 is not really rec league

The entire league is REC league. Just because some teams have managed to cheat the system doesn't mean they are exempt from the rules.

Unless you believe that three pools just happen to produce the best swimmers from their membership year after year for decades, it's pretty obvious that it isn't a rec league at the top

like another poster already pointed out, what really makes these top 3 pools so good every year is their membership size is so much bigger than other pools in the NVSL. So even though our lower division pool may be able to beat them in a few cohorts (e.g 8u boys), these top teams consistently have so much depth they will dominate us in a meet. Even if you think Chesterbrook cheated here (i agree this does go against the spirit of the league), I don't believe cheating is rampant at these pools.

There memberships aren't really that much larger than other pools and certainly not enough to explain their results. The top 5 or 6 divisions are packed with similar sized pools, but these three win ever year

I can't really debate this since I don't know where to find all the data on pool membership size. Someone earlier mentioned that Overlee has over 800 families. That is well more than double the size of our pool (Div 3). Also, I have been to both Overlee and Chesterbrook (but not Tuckahoe) for non-swim league things. Their facilities are massive compared to ours. They both have a secondary pool that i think could probably host a meet without even using their larger pool.

It's all in the bylaws!

Overlee - capped 800 families, summer memberships allowed
Tuckahoe - capped to 3250 people, so ~ 800 families, temporary memberships allowed
chesterbrook - capped to 550 families, summer memberships allowed
Donaldson - capped to 650 families, summer memberships allowed
Highlands - capped to 500 families, summer memberships allowed
Mclean - capped to 450-500 families, renting out memberships allowed

What does “summer memberships allowed” mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe I'm defending chesterbrook- but you have proved nothing. There is no restriction in NVSL rules for swimming for the NVSL and another league, indeed many kids do this to swim long course with their club teams and swim summer league. Sure its a little odd that he was swimming for 2 different rec leagues so far apart (its a long way from PG county to mclean)- but as long as his family had a bona fide membership at both clubs he's not breaking any rules. Perhaps the parents are split and he divided his time between mclean and PG county.

First - year round (club swim) and summer swim are two different things. And, no one ever said you can't do both.

This is about the fact he was swimming for 2 different summer leagues at once. You are correct, there is nothing in the rules that states you can't swim for more than one summer league. The only restriction NVSL places is you can't swim for 2 different teams that are a part of the NVSL league. The interesting thing is he ONLY swam for them in 2019. He never swam for them before or after. He has no other time records in the NVSL database. Why would he only swim with them for 1 year? Chesterbrook needed him and his times. Just because he wasn't technically breaking the rules, doesn't make it right.

It goes against the principles of rec league, you know community based fun swimming. Swimming for two rec leagues is BS when he did not have ongoing relationship with one of them.

Also, NVSL states that you have to have a family membership with the pool in order to swim there and most require you to live in the house.

D1 is not really rec league

The entire league is REC league. Just because some teams have managed to cheat the system doesn't mean they are exempt from the rules.

Unless you believe that three pools just happen to produce the best swimmers from their membership year after year for decades, it's pretty obvious that it isn't a rec league at the top

like another poster already pointed out, what really makes these top 3 pools so good every year is their membership size is so much bigger than other pools in the NVSL. So even though our lower division pool may be able to beat them in a few cohorts (e.g 8u boys), these top teams consistently have so much depth they will dominate us in a meet. Even if you think Chesterbrook cheated here (i agree this does go against the spirit of the league), I don't believe cheating is rampant at these pools.

There memberships aren't really that much larger than other pools and certainly not enough to explain their results. The top 5 or 6 divisions are packed with similar sized pools, but these three win ever year

I can't really debate this since I don't know where to find all the data on pool membership size. Someone earlier mentioned that Overlee has over 800 families. That is well more than double the size of our pool (Div 3). Also, I have been to both Overlee and Chesterbrook (but not Tuckahoe) for non-swim league things. Their facilities are massive compared to ours. They both have a secondary pool that i think could probably host a meet without even using their larger pool.

It's all in the bylaws!

Overlee - capped 800 families, summer memberships allowed
Tuckahoe - capped to 3250 people, so ~ 800 families, temporary memberships allowed
chesterbrook - capped to 550 families, summer memberships allowed
Donaldson - capped to 650 families, summer memberships allowed
Highlands - capped to 500 families, summer memberships allowed
Mclean - capped to 450-500 families, renting out memberships allowed

What does “summer memberships allowed” mean?

They either specify that they allow people on the waitlist to pay a fee and have a summer only membership. Or they give themselves leeway and state they can give temporary memberships at their discretion. It’s all in the bylaws. Some places allow people to rent out their memberships. Others allow temporary memberships to renters. Some can let employees skip the waitlist. Some let family members skip the waitlist. There’s always a way in, people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our hoa, little rocky run, has 2800 households with automatic number of pool memberships. If it was just about numbers, we would be competitive in D1.

that gets to a fundamental difference between a place like Overlee. At LRR, you are automatically in whether you really care or not, and whether or not you have young children. At Overlee, you had to get on their waitlist before your kid was born.

I do also find it odd, that looking at a map of NVSL pools (https://www.mynvsl.com/file/31348/NVSL_Map_of_102_Teams_updated_pdf) , all D1 teams are clustered together in the North Arlington/Falls Church/Mclean area.

That's where all the dishonest lobbyist and BigLaw types can afford to live.

It makes sense that the wealthiest regions have the best teams. Better coaching, more parental time/money for private coaching, higher likelihood that kids are swimming for a year round club or getting year round swim instruction, higher likelihood that younger kids have been in swim lessons since they were babies, history of success puts more pressure for families with young kids to get year round swim instruction so they have an advantage when they start competing.

Remarkably happy that our team (GFS&T), also in “one of the wealthiest regions,” largely avoids this nonsense and is quite happy bouncing around the middle divisions. Our kids are there to have fun — and we aim to have just as much fun on Monday evenings as on on Saturday mornings. Do many of our kids swim year round? Yes. Do we measure our kids’ success on how they swim on a few summer weekends? No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't believe I'm defending chesterbrook- but you have proved nothing. There is no restriction in NVSL rules for swimming for the NVSL and another league, indeed many kids do this to swim long course with their club teams and swim summer league. Sure its a little odd that he was swimming for 2 different rec leagues so far apart (its a long way from PG county to mclean)- but as long as his family had a bona fide membership at both clubs he's not breaking any rules. Perhaps the parents are split and he divided his time between mclean and PG county.

First - year round (club swim) and summer swim are two different things. And, no one ever said you can't do both.

This is about the fact he was swimming for 2 different summer leagues at once. You are correct, there is nothing in the rules that states you can't swim for more than one summer league. The only restriction NVSL places is you can't swim for 2 different teams that are a part of the NVSL league. The interesting thing is he ONLY swam for them in 2019. He never swam for them before or after. He has no other time records in the NVSL database. Why would he only swim with them for 1 year? Chesterbrook needed him and his times. Just because he wasn't technically breaking the rules, doesn't make it right.

It goes against the principles of rec league, you know community based fun swimming. Swimming for two rec leagues is BS when he did not have ongoing relationship with one of them.

Also, NVSL states that you have to have a family membership with the pool in order to swim there and most require you to live in the house.

D1 is not really rec league

The entire league is REC league. Just because some teams have managed to cheat the system doesn't mean they are exempt from the rules.

Unless you believe that three pools just happen to produce the best swimmers from their membership year after year for decades, it's pretty obvious that it isn't a rec league at the top

like another poster already pointed out, what really makes these top 3 pools so good every year is their membership size is so much bigger than other pools in the NVSL. So even though our lower division pool may be able to beat them in a few cohorts (e.g 8u boys), these top teams consistently have so much depth they will dominate us in a meet. Even if you think Chesterbrook cheated here (i agree this does go against the spirit of the league), I don't believe cheating is rampant at these pools.

There memberships aren't really that much larger than other pools and certainly not enough to explain their results. The top 5 or 6 divisions are packed with similar sized pools, but these three win ever year

I can't really debate this since I don't know where to find all the data on pool membership size. Someone earlier mentioned that Overlee has over 800 families. That is well more than double the size of our pool (Div 3). Also, I have been to both Overlee and Chesterbrook (but not Tuckahoe) for non-swim league things. Their facilities are massive compared to ours. They both have a secondary pool that i think could probably host a meet without even using their larger pool.

It's all in the bylaws!

Overlee - capped 800 families, summer memberships allowed
Tuckahoe - capped to 3250 people, so ~ 800 families, temporary memberships allowed
chesterbrook - capped to 550 families, summer memberships allowed
Donaldson - capped to 650 families, summer memberships allowed
Highlands - capped to 500 families, summer memberships allowed
Mclean - capped to 450-500 families, renting out memberships allowed

What does “summer memberships allowed” mean?

They either specify that they allow people on the waitlist to pay a fee and have a summer only membership. Or they give themselves leeway and state they can give temporary memberships at their discretion. It’s all in the bylaws. Some places allow people to rent out their memberships. Others allow temporary memberships to renters. Some can let employees skip the waitlist. Some let family members skip the waitlist. There’s always a way in, people.

Are you talking about August passes? You’ve listed “summer memberships allowed” for a bunch of pools that are only open in the summer. August passes are valid after the swim team season is over and doesn’t include swim team privileges.