Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're right, let's not focus on the OB. Instead, let's focus on the fact that an infant can be quickly resuscitated by the NICU attending, the NICU nurse, the pediatrician, etc. A midwife cannot intubate a newborn as far as I know. (you can correct me if I am wrong). Also, an OB can perform an emergency c-section to save the baby's life. A midwife at home cannot do that.

It amazes me that people are still acting like this would have worked in this particular situation. Seriously, a cesarean was NOT going to help this baby once it was realized to be stuck - the entire body had already been delivered! As for the resuscitation, midwives can perform NNR and some are extremely adept at it. It is a huge assumption that resuscitation would have magically worked had it been performed by a NICU nurse rather than the midwife. It seems like in this case, a baby stuck for that amount of time is not going to be revived, period. I know everyone wants to cling to the fact that "the hospital" could have worked a miracle in this case, and while I certainly wouldn't rule that out completely, I also wouldn't assume it to be true. It was a rare, horrific, and DIRE situation, one that certainly could have resulted in the same outcome regardless of where the birth took place.

Um, it's been stated many times here that in such a case, OBs will attempt to push the baby back up to a "safer point" and perform an emergency c-section before oxygen lack becomes dammaging or deadly. No, it doesn't always work, but just like homebirths are "usually" safe, this method "usually" works. It wasn't an option in this case b/c Carr could not perform a c-section nor did she align transfer precautions enough for it to be timely. She didn't even call for it at all. Gimme a break.

EXACTLY to the last poster.
To the poster I bolded : It amazes me, how many times you can post this nonsense again and again. HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE HAVE TO POST IN THIS THREAD THAT YES, IN THE OR THIS BABY WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!!! EVEN ONCE THE HEAD WAS STUCK! How thick can you be???! You just don't want to acknowledge something that you don't know about, and keep spouting this misinformation. Fine. Signed "The Hospital"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're right, let's not focus on the OB. Instead, let's focus on the fact that an infant can be quickly resuscitated by the NICU attending, the NICU nurse, the pediatrician, etc. A midwife cannot intubate a newborn as far as I know. (you can correct me if I am wrong). Also, an OB can perform an emergency c-section to save the baby's life. A midwife at home cannot do that.

It amazes me that people are still acting like this would have worked in this particular situation. Seriously, a cesarean was NOT going to help this baby once it was realized to be stuck - the entire body had already been delivered! As for the resuscitation, midwives can perform NNR and some are extremely adept at it. It is a huge assumption that resuscitation would have magically worked had it been performed by a NICU nurse rather than the midwife. It seems like in this case, a baby stuck for that amount of time is not going to be revived, period. I know everyone wants to cling to the fact that "the hospital" could have worked a miracle in this case, and while I certainly wouldn't rule that out completely, I also wouldn't assume it to be true. It was a rare, horrific, and DIRE situation, one that certainly could have resulted in the same outcome regardless of where the birth took place.

Um, it's been stated many times here that in such a case, OBs will attempt to push the baby back up to a "safer point" and perform an emergency c-section before oxygen lack becomes dammaging or deadly. No, it doesn't always work, but just like homebirths are "usually" safe, this method "usually" works. It wasn't an option in this case b/c Carr could not perform a c-section nor did she align transfer precautions enough for it to be timely. She didn't even call for it at all. Gimme a break.

EXACTLY to the last poster.
To the poster I bolded : It amazes me, how many times you can post this nonsense again and again. HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE HAVE TO POST IN THIS THREAD THAT YES, IN THE OR THIS BABY WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!!! EVEN ONCE THE HEAD WAS STUCK! How thick can you be???! You just don't want to acknowledge something that you don't know about, and keep spouting this misinformation. Fine. Signed "The Hospital"

You can holler all you want, but you are never going to convince me that, once the baby was delivered to the neck, a c/s would have magically made everything okay. I will concede that it MIGHT have worked, but I also think there is just as great a chance that it would not have. And, I do know an awful lot about this situation, and I am definitely not spouting misinformation. Replacing the entire body of the baby into the uterus would be very risky to mom and baby, and in order for it to truly save that baby's life, there would have needed to be 1) a doctor immediately available who was skilled in that maneuver, 2) an OR literally INSTANTLY available, and 3) lots of good luck. I think there is a desperation that many women have to cling to this notion that with the right tools, we can make every birth go right, or that we can fix any serious problems which arise. Obviously there is an entirely separate debate about whether this woman should have planned a cesarean, but given the actual birth that she had, I maintain that there are no guarantees at all that it would have turned out better even if she had delivered with an OB in the hospital. I understand that you have a different opinion, which you are certainly welcome to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're right, let's not focus on the OB. Instead, let's focus on the fact that an infant can be quickly resuscitated by the NICU attending, the NICU nurse, the pediatrician, etc. A midwife cannot intubate a newborn as far as I know. (you can correct me if I am wrong). Also, an OB can perform an emergency c-section to save the baby's life. A midwife at home cannot do that.

It amazes me that people are still acting like this would have worked in this particular situation. Seriously, a cesarean was NOT going to help this baby once it was realized to be stuck - the entire body had already been delivered! As for the resuscitation, midwives can perform NNR and some are extremely adept at it. It is a huge assumption that resuscitation would have magically worked had it been performed by a NICU nurse rather than the midwife. It seems like in this case, a baby stuck for that amount of time is not going to be revived, period. I know everyone wants to cling to the fact that "the hospital" could have worked a miracle in this case, and while I certainly wouldn't rule that out completely, I also wouldn't assume it to be true. It was a rare, horrific, and DIRE situation, one that certainly could have resulted in the same outcome regardless of where the birth took place.

Um, it's been stated many times here that in such a case, OBs will attempt to push the baby back up to a "safer point" and perform an emergency c-section before oxygen lack becomes dammaging or deadly. No, it doesn't always work, but just like homebirths are "usually" safe, this method "usually" works. It wasn't an option in this case b/c Carr could not perform a c-section nor did she align transfer precautions enough for it to be timely. She didn't even call for it at all. Gimme a break.

EXACTLY to the last poster.
To the poster I bolded : It amazes me, how many times you can post this nonsense again and again. HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE HAVE TO POST IN THIS THREAD THAT YES, IN THE OR THIS BABY WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!!! EVEN ONCE THE HEAD WAS STUCK! How thick can you be???! You just don't want to acknowledge something that you don't know about, and keep spouting this misinformation. Fine. Signed "The Hospital"

You can holler all you want, but you are never going to convince me that, once the baby was delivered to the neck, a c/s would have magically made everything okay. I will concede that it MIGHT have worked, but I also think there is just as great a chance that it would not have. And, I do know an awful lot about this situation, and I am definitely not spouting misinformation. Replacing the entire body of the baby into the uterus would be very risky to mom and baby, and in order for it to truly save that baby's life, there would have needed to be 1) a doctor immediately available who was skilled in that maneuver, 2) an OR literally INSTANTLY available, and 3) lots of good luck. I think there is a desperation that many women have to cling to this notion that with the right tools, we can make every birth go right, or that we can fix any serious problems which arise. Obviously there is an entirely separate debate about whether this woman should have planned a cesarean, but given the actual birth that she had, I maintain that there are no guarantees at all that it would have turned out better even if she had delivered with an OB in the hospital. I understand that you have a different opinion, which you are certainly welcome to.

Was the mother assessed by ultrasound to see how big her pelvic outlet was compared to the baby's head?

[Anonymous]

The point is the mother should have had a c-section to begin with. You are correct that once the body is delivered the only way to deliver the head is with specific maneuvers and if those fail, cutting the cervix or using special forceps. The majority of practicing ObGyn's and CNM's would not advocate for a singleton breech delivery, especially in a nulliparous patient. A second twin is a different situation. This was a sad and preventable situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're right, let's not focus on the OB. Instead, let's focus on the fact that an infant can be quickly resuscitated by the NICU attending, the NICU nurse, the pediatrician, etc. A midwife cannot intubate a newborn as far as I know. (you can correct me if I am wrong). Also, an OB can perform an emergency c-section to save the baby's life. A midwife at home cannot do that.

It amazes me that people are still acting like this would have worked in this particular situation. Seriously, a cesarean was NOT going to help this baby once it was realized to be stuck - the entire body had already been delivered! As for the resuscitation, midwives can perform NNR and some are extremely adept at it. It is a huge assumption that resuscitation would have magically worked had it been performed by a NICU nurse rather than the midwife. It seems like in this case, a baby stuck for that amount of time is not going to be revived, period. I know everyone wants to cling to the fact that "the hospital" could have worked a miracle in this case, and while I certainly wouldn't rule that out completely, I also wouldn't assume it to be true. It was a rare, horrific, and DIRE situation, one that certainly could have resulted in the same outcome regardless of where the birth took place.

Um, it's been stated many times here that in such a case, OBs will attempt to push the baby back up to a "safer point" and perform an emergency c-section before oxygen lack becomes dammaging or deadly. No, it doesn't always work, but just like homebirths are "usually" safe, this method "usually" works. It wasn't an option in this case b/c Carr could not perform a c-section nor did she align transfer precautions enough for it to be timely. She didn't even call for it at all. Gimme a break.

EXACTLY to the last poster.
To the poster I bolded : It amazes me, how many times you can post this nonsense again and again. HOW MANY TIMES DO PEOPLE THAT HAVE THE EXPERIENCE HAVE TO POST IN THIS THREAD THAT YES, IN THE OR THIS BABY WOULD HAVE HAD A CHANCE!!! EVEN ONCE THE HEAD WAS STUCK! How thick can you be???! You just don't want to acknowledge something that you don't know about, and keep spouting this misinformation. Fine. Signed "The Hospital"

You can holler all you want, but you are never going to convince me that, once the baby was delivered to the neck, a c/s would have magically made everything okay. I will concede that it MIGHT have worked, but I also think there is just as great a chance that it would not have. And, I do know an awful lot about this situation, and I am definitely not spouting misinformation. Replacing the entire body of the baby into the uterus would be very risky to mom and baby, and in order for it to truly save that baby's life, there would have needed to be 1) a doctor immediately available who was skilled in that maneuver, 2) an OR literally INSTANTLY available, and 3) lots of good luck. I think there is a desperation that many women have to cling to this notion that with the right tools, we can make every birth go right, or that we can fix any serious problems which arise. Obviously there is an entirely separate debate about whether this woman should have planned a cesarean, but given the actual birth that she had, I maintain that there are no guarantees at all that it would have turned out better even if she had delivered with an OB in the hospital. I understand that you have a different opinion, which you are certainly welcome to.

Was the mother assessed by ultrasound to see how big her pelvic outlet was compared to the baby's head?

You do realize that this is a pointless exercise? A mother's pelvic outlet can change dramatically during childbirth...especially when not lying on her back. An u/s cannot show/predict what will happen during labor. It's just more non-evidence based "medicine".

[Anonymous]

Holy C**p, She's also being investigated in a recent death in Maryland, and has been ordered to Cease and Desist in DC due to a bad outcome. The tip of the iceberg has been breached, it appears.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-karen-carr-convicted-in-alexandria-babys-death-is-under-investigation-in-md/2011/05/11/AFlrp22G_story.html?hpid=z3

[Anonymous]

How many dead babies (otherwise healthy, term, perfectly formed newborns) does Karen Carr trail in her wake?

Is there any way to tell?

[Anonymous]

Dr. Bradley supported natural birth but not home birth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Holy C**p, She's also being investigated in a recent death in Maryland, and has been ordered to Cease and Desist in DC due to a bad outcome. The tip of the iceberg has been breached, it appears.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-karen-carr-convicted-in-alexandria-babys-death-is-under-investigation-in-md/2011/05/11/AFlrp22G_story.html?hpid=z3

The DC cease and desist is a product of the case currently being discussed here. WRT the case in MD, there is nothing in the facts as stated to indicate that KC played any part in the baby's death. There is no "iceberg" here.

[Anonymous]

Article from Washington Post
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-karen-carr-convicted-in-alexandria-babys-death-is-under-investigation-in-md/2011/05/11/AFlrp22G_story.html?hpid=z2>

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy C**p, She's also being investigated in a recent death in Maryland, and has been ordered to Cease and Desist in DC due to a bad outcome. The tip of the iceberg has been breached, it appears.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-karen-carr-convicted-in-alexandria-babys-death-is-under-investigation-in-md/2011/05/11/AFlrp22G_story.html?hpid=z3

The DC cease and desist is a product of the case currently being discussed here. WRT the case in MD, there is nothing in the facts as stated to indicate that KC played any part in the baby's death. There is no "iceberg" here.

Have you even read the article??!! It clearly states that the Cease and Desist is the result of a baby delivered by Ms. Carr in DC who had to be rushed to the hospital after Ms. Carr presided at the home delivery.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Holy C**p, She's also being investigated in a recent death in Maryland, and has been ordered to Cease and Desist in DC due to a bad outcome. The tip of the iceberg has been breached, it appears.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/midwife-karen-carr-convicted-in-alexandria-babys-death-is-under-investigation-in-md/2011/05/11/AFlrp22G_story.html?hpid=z3

The DC cease and desist is a product of the case currently being discussed here. WRT the case in MD, there is nothing in the facts as stated to indicate that KC played any part in the baby's death. There is no "iceberg" here.

Have you even read the article??!! It clearly states that the Cease and Desist is the result of a baby delivered by Ms. Carr in DC who had to be rushed to the hospital after Ms. Carr presided at the home delivery.

Wowzers. Now we are going to start dissecting cases that we really, TRULY, have absolutely no information about. I would implore everyone to step back, take a breath, and consider the fact that every OB in DC has stories about babies that get stuck and die, babies who for some reason don't breathe and die, and other babies that have poor outcomes. Have you asked YOUR obstetrician about the last five babies that died under HIS care? I doubt it. I would also gently suggest that we have no idea how accurate the facts are from this one particular article. It is a news article, for goodness sake, and they are interested in exciting news. If you hate the idea of an unlicensed midwife delivering babies at home, that is fine and you are welcome to choose not to use them. But to pretend that one, two or even three poor outcomes - which we have precious little information about - are indicative of the skill or personality of a given childbirth provider, is disingenuous.

[Anonymous]

The article in this morning's Washington Post is unbelievable. Carr talks on her cell phone through other deliveries while trying to deliver a baby, and when the mother is not doing well she runs off anyway because she has other things to do.

No wonder she doesn't have a license.

And the only remorse she feels is about having pled guilty so she could get off with just a few days in jail.

The death rate in homebirths is two to three times that in the hospital. The homebirth loons out there who choose this solution because they don't want to to have an unsightly cut and a few stitches deserve what they get I suppose. But their poor babies sure don't deserve horrible, selfish parents like them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here - my understanding is that the shoulders were born (all of the baby except the head was out) so pushing the baby back in was not an option at all. Maybe aggressive use of forceps could have gotten the head out sooner. But there would have been some kind of bad outcome with that as well.

Exactly. A severe head entrapment is a pretty awful situation to be in. No matter where you are, there is a high chance things are not going to end well.

Wow! Unless some of these people posting were lurking in the shadows at the home-chances are NONE of you know where the baby was, or how long it was in the birth canal, or how long if at all they tried to recusitate the baby. You dont know if there was head entrapment or any of the other million excuses you seem to be giving Ms. Carr. You tear into the medical community all because they dont fit what your idea of the perfect world is. When you have a tooth ache do you call your closest friend to come on over and fill your tooth with a drummel tool? If you needed a lawyer to defend you would you call up your best girl friend to defend you in court? If you were having a heart attack would you just call yourself a cab and have him drive you to the hospital- or maybe you wouldnt call anyone, just treat yourself based on everything you find on google or the internet because that seems to be where most of you are getting your education. Why do you even use a midwife, why not just read some more on the internet with your husband or partner and do it yourself. There is a reason that there is a standard set of skills that people are supposed to have before they practice certain occupations. Regardless of how passionate you are about something, that doesnt mean you are good at it or should be doing it for that matter. Based on much of the statements on this now 100+ page tread, we shouldnt have rules or regulations, that people should be able to do whatever they want regardless. How did Ms Carr obtain themedications she was illegally giving people? Was it legally? Where the medications any good? Did the woman even know how to administer them to someone, which I am sure all you already know can have complications of its own? There are reasons people skirt the system and its never for good reasons, despite the intentions/ Its great she wanted to help women give birth naturally, good for her, now how about throwing some basic good old fashioned education behind your spot welding skills and learn how to do it the right way. Stop feeling sorry for this woman who created her own private hell by lying and decieving people for years. You all post about how many babies she "caught" how about the ones she didnt?

[Anonymous]

The WP article is crap. The stats given by the OB from the ACOG is based on a study that was debunked as soon as it came out. Anybody who draws conclusions based on a news article alone is a fool.

With the number of births KC has attended, there are going to be sad outcomes. It's almost a statistical certainty.