Help me Edit: Response to Brookings Report

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Other research has come to similar conclusions.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/07/when-white-parents-have-a-choice-they-choose-segregated-schools.html

Full paper:

https://www.mathematica.org/download-media?MediaItemId={B5C6F476-7946-4177-8F5A-AF6A88BD9559}

According to that paper's abstract, the authors favor removing capacity constraints on high-performing schools and closing poor-performing schools. If that happened, everyone would be doing what DCUM posters are accused of doing. Another paper funded by Walton, btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Late to the conversation here... but the Brookings paper is awful. Hard to believe this is a 4-year study. The author states that DCUM is not representative of the city (selection bias) based on a zip code analysis and then somehow thinks it is revelatory that the schools most talked about are in those very same zip codes where forum participants live. And then the author thinks it is noteworthy that the words used to talk about the schools the participants know well are familiar words ("moms," "families") and the words used to talk about the schools with which they are less familiar are cold and clinical. The zip codes of forum participants corelate highly with high education, so interest in test scores, advanced classes, etc. is logical, and I think it would be consistent among highly educated, regardless of race. I'm not sure why anyone would expect a different result. Not to mention that the conversation analysis is less sophisticated than what interns do where I work.

Yes, the "nice white parents" conversation is important, but I don't see how this advances it. And I admit -- as one of those nice parents in Ward 1-- it is easy to feel damned no matter what. I'm either "abandoning my neighborhood school" or I'm "gentrifying my neighborhood school."

m

+1 Hiring Brookings for four years? What a joke. Especially when you have The Urban Institute and Mathematica in town.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:yes, exactly. A lot of the books that have come out this year (How to Be Anti-racist, Caste) are about exactly this. It's really understandable that people get defensive when they think they are being "called a segregationist." this year has been a long journey of trying to get people to face instead that they are participating in a racist system. it's a subtle difference but maybe one that can relieve some of that defensiveness.

To an extent I agree with you and I acknowledge that I probably should have viewed things more in this light. However, with regard to this report, I think its research is extremely shoddy, doesn't support the conclusions, and both ignores and reveals the obvious. Because the research is so light and flawed, what stands out are the allegations that are repeated throughout the report about supporting segregation. Perhaps the authors could have made their point without using such a loaded term? Is there really any justification for using such a term toward people who have chosen to remain in DC public schools rather than fleeing for private or the suburbs? Why antagonize the very folks with whom you must partner to find a solution?

Jeff, this reaction is white fragility in action. You can do better.

You may be correct that it is white fragility, but it is also reality. If people are interested in hard truths, it is a simple fact that this sort of language alienates your most likely allies. Why accuse people who didn't choose private schools and who didn't flee to the suburbs of supporting segregation? What solution does that help achieve?

This sounds like whataboutism, with respect to those who moved to the suburbs or choose private.

Should the authors not even bother to do this sort of research, for fear of how it will land with some defensive people? Hopefully for those that react less defensively, or move from initial defensiveness to actually thinking about whether they can do anything better, there will be a positive impact.

What sort of research did they do? None. Had they done real research and looked at actual data, they might have come to a different conclusion about parents in DCPS.

Other research has come to similar conclusions.

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/07/when-white-parents-have-a-choice-they-choose-segregated-schools.html

Full paper:

https://www.mathematica.org/download-media?MediaItemId={B5C6F476-7946-4177-8F5A-AF6A88BD9559}

Those are not about DC.

It is in fact about DC. From the Slate article:

"The study, by Steven Glazerman and Dallas Dotter of Mathematica Policy Research, took advantage of the school lottery system in Washington, D.C., which allows families to apply for classroom seats outside of their neighborhoods. Past research shows that when asked, American parents claim that academic performance is their greatest priority when selecting schoola for their children. But Glazerman and Dotter were looking for “revealed” preferences: the conclusions that could be drawn not by talking to parents, who might feel pressured to give socially acceptable responses, but by examining how 22,000 applicants of varying races and classes actually ranked 91 public charter schools and 110 district schools, at the pre-K, elementary school, middle school, and high school levels."

[Anonymous]

I mean let’s be honest here- if you live in or near Brookland and look at 4-5 star schools, you look at inspired and yu Ying for example. DCUM never mentions friendship or dc prep which are also four stars and near by but mostly black. Instead, shining stars is more popular which is just two stars. As a parent entering the lottery I came to DCUM for advice on how to sort through schools, and I self segregated by not even looking at some of the more highly rated black schools in the area. Now, I’ll admit I don’t want my kid to be the only white kid in school, but this is an example how all this works in practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not sure the "quoting DCUM posts" problem is as bad as some might make it out to be. This forum is hyper-anonymous and highly visible. If you're shocked you're quotable for what you've written here, don't be.

I think the issue isn't the quoting itself, it is that based on what Jeff said, the researchers told Jeff they wouldn't quote directly and then did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I mean let’s be honest here- if you live in or near Brookland and look at 4-5 star schools, you look at inspired and yu Ying for example. DCUM never mentions friendship or dc prep which are also four stars and near by but mostly black. Instead, shining stars is more popular which is just two stars. As a parent entering the lottery I came to DCUM for advice on how to sort through schools, and I self segregated by not even looking at some of the more highly rated black schools in the area. Now, I’ll admit I don’t want my kid to be the only white kid in school, but this is an example how all this works in practice.

But some of us did look at DC Prep, and KIPP as well, but didn't like the teach-to-the-test model.
Is "play-based" also code for "more white" now, too?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd remove the language about you being targeted. To be blunt, you may feel that way but it does not really matter. The issues here are agnostic to your feelings: (a) the authors were not up front with you, didn't tell you they would scrape/save the site, and also quoted specific posts after saying they wouldn't (according to what you wrote earlier) and (b) in your opinion their methodology is shoddy, for reasons x, y, and z.

I changed the wording of that sentence a bit. I am just trying to explain why I am more than simply a casual observer. I am not only the site owner, but someone who participates in the forum and a parent who has struggled with the school-decision process. In the minds of the report's authors, I am a segregationist.

The woe is me of all this is absolutely absurd. Instead of being defensive, look at the hard facts of the segregation that does exist in this city, and ask yourself how forums like this exacerbate that problem. Whether you personally believe it to be true, DCUM has a stigma and this “how dare people question us” mood is not helping y’all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean let’s be honest here- if you live in or near Brookland and look at 4-5 star schools, you look at inspired and yu Ying for example. DCUM never mentions friendship or dc prep which are also four stars and near by but mostly black. Instead, shining stars is more popular which is just two stars. As a parent entering the lottery I came to DCUM for advice on how to sort through schools, and I self segregated by not even looking at some of the more highly rated black schools in the area. Now, I’ll admit I don’t want my kid to be the only white kid in school, but this is an example how all this works in practice.

But some of us did look at DC Prep, and KIPP as well, but didn't like the teach-to-the-test model.
Is "play-based" also code for "more white" now, too?

You may have, but the general idea behind the report is that it’s not discussed on DCUM. Most of us dont give those schools a real chance. If DCUM gloated about those schools, I probably would have attended an open house etc

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

Did you send your kids to your neighborhood schools? If not, that probably is a good place to start

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd remove the language about you being targeted. To be blunt, you may feel that way but it does not really matter. The issues here are agnostic to your feelings: (a) the authors were not up front with you, didn't tell you they would scrape/save the site, and also quoted specific posts after saying they wouldn't (according to what you wrote earlier) and (b) in your opinion their methodology is shoddy, for reasons x, y, and z.

I changed the wording of that sentence a bit. I am just trying to explain why I am more than simply a casual observer. I am not only the site owner, but someone who participates in the forum and a parent who has struggled with the school-decision process. In the minds of the report's authors, I am a segregationist.

The woe is me of all this is absolutely absurd. Instead of being defensive, look at the hard facts of the segregation that does exist in this city, and ask yourself how forums like this exacerbate that problem. Whether you personally believe it to be true, DCUM has a stigma and this “how dare people question us” mood is not helping y’all.

+1. I was told about this site by a white parent, who conceded that it's sometimes a little bit racist. It's well-known to have this reputation of having a tinge of racism in many posts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

Did you send your kids to your neighborhood schools? If not, that probably is a good place to start

That’s an unlikely solution. I wouldn’t have moved to NE DC if I HAD to send my kids to the local schools such as Brookland middle. I moved here because there was an option for school choice. If I had to choose my local school, I’d be in ward 3 or Maryland like others.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd remove the language about you being targeted. To be blunt, you may feel that way but it does not really matter. The issues here are agnostic to your feelings: (a) the authors were not up front with you, didn't tell you they would scrape/save the site, and also quoted specific posts after saying they wouldn't (according to what you wrote earlier) and (b) in your opinion their methodology is shoddy, for reasons x, y, and z.

I changed the wording of that sentence a bit. I am just trying to explain why I am more than simply a casual observer. I am not only the site owner, but someone who participates in the forum and a parent who has struggled with the school-decision process. In the minds of the report's authors, I am a segregationist.

The woe is me of all this is absolutely absurd. Instead of being defensive, look at the hard facts of the segregation that does exist in this city, and ask yourself how forums like this exacerbate that problem. Whether you personally believe it to be true, DCUM has a stigma and this “how dare people question us” mood is not helping y’all.

DCUM is mostly a free market of ideas. If a bunch of segregation supporters have been controlling this forum, where have you folks been? Why haven't you been posting about how great your local inbound school is and how much you would like others to join you there?

Do you really believe that nobody has ever questioned how this forum exacerbates problems? That happens almost every day. I almost get the feeling that this is the first day on DCUM for a lot of you.

I am frustrated by a bunch of so-called researchers making a mockery of real research, who don't even bother to read their own examples, but then claim to know all about DCUM. They trivialize and oversimplify complex topics. Anyone who thinks DCUM can be adequately explained by a bunch of word searches has no idea what they are talking about.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

Did you send your kids to your neighborhood schools? If not, that probably is a good place to start

Not for elementary, but that was decision was made over 16 years ago. I did send my kids to their inbound middle and high schools.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

I've been reflective for the 15 years I've run the site. The biggest part of my job is removing racist posts. It is impossible to read every thread, let alone every post. But I do my best with the help of a lot of posters who care enough to report posts rather than just complain.

Oh yeah, I appreciate that you are honest enough to explain that the education movement is still searching for answers. I would just ask you what you expect from parents who are trying to find schools for their kids who also don't know those answers? Perhaps reflection is something that more than I should do? I don't think any of use have a monopoly on the truth or the answers.