Help me Edit: Response to Brookings Report

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I think it's better now. I don't live in DC, and am just a long-time DCUM fan. From that vantage point, I still feel the post comes across as a bit overly emotional at times, and suggest rereading it tomorrow morning with a dispassionate eye.

That's my style. I can't change my spots. I will reread it tomorrow, but what you call emotion I like to call passion.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's better now. I don't live in DC, and am just a long-time DCUM fan. From that vantage point, I still feel the post comes across as a bit overly emotional at times, and suggest rereading it tomorrow morning with a dispassionate eye.

That's my style. I can't change my spots. I will reread it tomorrow, but what you call emotion I like to call passion.

Fair enough, I think it is giving more credit (and your emotional energy) than the paper deserves, though!

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

yes!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

yes!!

And a lot of times people claim to see stuff that isn’t there.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Assuming that you are correct, what the expected solution is supposed to be. Do the authors expect people to no longer move to neighborhoods with good schools? Do they want posters to stop talking about their neighborhood schools? Should we oppose charters which are among the most diverse schools in the city because they take attention from some neighborhood schools? The posters here -- black, white, Hispanic, and other -- are acting in perfectly normal and natural ways. And, it's not like posters here are not aware of this. Racism is talked about constantly. Posters West of the Park complain that their schools are crowded and it is immediately attacked as an attempt to limit black access to the schools. If anyone suggests that Shepherd might better feed to middle and high schools that are geographically closer to it, they will be attacked for attempting to prevent black students from attending Deal and Wilson. This stuff gets talked about every day. Nobody here is oblivious to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

yes!!

Yes to all this. I'm privy to the integrated schools conversation, and you are talking past each other. To them, the individual choices that parents are making to choose whiter schools is, in th aggregate, the whole problem.

Ive been a frequent lurker and poster here and the racism is always present. If you can't see it, you are in it.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Assuming that you are correct, what the expected solution is supposed to be. Do the authors expect people to no longer move to neighborhoods with good schools? Do they want posters to stop talking about their neighborhood schools? Should we oppose charters which are among the most diverse schools in the city because they take attention from some neighborhood schools? The posters here -- black, white, Hispanic, and other -- are acting in perfectly normal and natural ways. And, it's not like posters here are not aware of this. Racism is talked about constantly. Posters West of the Park complain that their schools are crowded and it is immediately attacked as an attempt to limit black access to the schools. If anyone suggests that Shepherd might better feed to middle and high schools that are geographically closer to it, they will be attacked for attempting to prevent black students from attending Deal and Wilson. This stuff gets talked about every day. Nobody here is oblivious to it.

Yes.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

I agree this is a problem. But I disagree that such coded language defines the forum. This is another flaw of the report. It does not recognize the diversity of DCUM posters. Diversity in thoughts and actions, not just race. Yes, we have racists. Find a city in America that doesn't. But, we have posters who work diligently to help improve their disadvantaged local schools. We have posters whose child has been the only member of their race in a school. We have posters who have worked for years to improve all DCPS schools. We have posters who are people of color who have been leaders in educational reform and who have made major contributions to improving local schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

Oh and sometimes it’s just below the surface of posts here. The overtly racist posts get deleted, but that leaves everything else—a lot of it is coded but it’s there.

yes!!

Yes to all this. I'm privy to the integrated schools conversation, and you are talking past each other. To them, the individual choices that parents are making to choose whiter schools is, in th aggregate, the whole problem.

Ive been a frequent lurker and poster here and the racism is always present. If you can't see it, you are in it.

This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:This. I would not respond in the way you are planning to. It makes you look tone deaf at best, and an apologist for nasty behavior at worst. I don't think that is what or who you want to be, or be seen as. The racism and classism is present in all of this. Any denial of that won't work.

I will ask you the same question I asked above. If DCUM is a bunch of segregationists perpetuating a racist system, what is the solution? Do you want people to stop moving into neighborhoods that they perceive as having good schools? Are posters supposed to stop talking about their local schools? One poster wants us to stop supporting charters despite many of them being among the most diverse schools in the city -- all in the name of ending segregation. Just calling people racists is easy. What's the solution that you propose?

[Anonymous]

Nicely written!

Some friends in education were recently discussing that Black is capitalized now. I’m not sure whether White is. If you care to look in to this you could, or don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nicely written!

Some friends in education were recently discussing that Black is capitalized now. I’m not sure whether White is. If you care to look in to this you could, or don’t.

Apparently Black is capitalized universally now, whereas Wwhite is capitalized by some but not others. Maybe take a look and decide with you agree with in case you’re making a political statement inadvertently