Help me Edit: Response to Brookings Report

[Anonymous]

NP. I just read the article in the Post and my first reaction - before reading anything here on DCUM regarding it - was what an incredibly lazy piece. They’ve been monitoring your website to see how it “contributes to segregation” in the city’s schools? Unbelievable. Of course the vast majority of posters are from NW DC and surrounding areas in VA and MD - not from lower income areas of DC. So naturally, discussion will focus on the “best” schools. I have no idea how that has anything to do with “segregation or racism”. Every parent wants the best school possible for their kids, period.

God, the constant race-baiting in the media is beyond tiresome. It did remind me, however, why we canceled our WaPo subscription last year. What a useless rag.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:NP. I just read the article in the Post and my first reaction - before reading anything here on DCUM regarding it - was what an incredibly lazy piece. They’ve been monitoring your website to see how it “contributes to segregation” in the city’s schools? Unbelievable. Of course the vast majority of posters are from NW DC and surrounding areas in VA and MD - not from lower income areas of DC. So naturally, discussion will focus on the “best” schools. I have no idea how that has anything to do with “segregation or racism”. Every parent wants the best school possible for their kids, period.

God, the constant race-baiting in the media is beyond tiresome. It did remind me, however, why we canceled our WaPo subscription last year. What a useless rag.

I will defend the Post in this instance. Perry did a good job. Blame lies with Brookings.

[Anonymous]

Look don’t all call out the site manager. He’s tolerant of our views. It doesn’t mean he holds them. There’s value in looking at what you and I are doing about our kids. The racist effect of our cumulative choices combined with all the other factors here in DC?

The reaction of most people here is how to get mine or I got mine.

I really do think we can do better. I think as a group it’s time to evolve a little. We don’t need to blame or do shitty research to do better - it’ll be good for DC. I hope you all will think about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look don’t all call out the site manager. He’s tolerant of our views. It doesn’t mean he holds them. There’s value in looking at what you and I are doing about our kids. The racist effect of our cumulative choices combined with all the other factors here in DC?

The reaction of most people here is how to get mine or I got mine.

I really do think we can do better. I think as a group it’s time to evolve a little. We don’t need to blame or do shitty research to do better - it’ll be good for DC. I hope you all will think about it.

+1

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

I've been reflective for the 15 years I've run the site. The biggest part of my job is removing racist posts. It is impossible to read every thread, let alone every post. But I do my best with the help of a lot of posters who care enough to report posts rather than just complain.

Oh yeah, I appreciate that you are honest enough to explain that the education movement is still searching for answers. I would just ask you what you expect from parents who are trying to find schools for their kids who also don't know those answers? Perhaps reflection is something that more than I should do? I don't think any of use have a monopoly on the truth or the answers.

The problem is that the racism is very subtle--such as steering a poster new to the area to schools w/larger white populations--so they don't meet criteria for removal.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

I've been reflective for the 15 years I've run the site. The biggest part of my job is removing racist posts. It is impossible to read every thread, let alone every post. But I do my best with the help of a lot of posters who care enough to report posts rather than just complain.

Oh yeah, I appreciate that you are honest enough to explain that the education movement is still searching for answers. I would just ask you what you expect from parents who are trying to find schools for their kids who also don't know those answers? Perhaps reflection is something that more than I should do? I don't think any of use have a monopoly on the truth or the answers.

The problem is that the racism is very subtle--such as steering a poster new to the area to schools w/larger white populations--so they don't meet criteria for removal.

Right, but if you see that happening, can't you jump in with a post suggesting an option that you think is more appropriate? The hypothetical poster you describe may simply be referring the new comer to the only school with which the poster is familiar. Not everything is a conspiracy.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

I've been reflective for the 15 years I've run the site. The biggest part of my job is removing racist posts. It is impossible to read every thread, let alone every post. But I do my best with the help of a lot of posters who care enough to report posts rather than just complain.

Oh yeah, I appreciate that you are honest enough to explain that the education movement is still searching for answers. I would just ask you what you expect from parents who are trying to find schools for their kids who also don't know those answers? Perhaps reflection is something that more than I should do? I don't think any of use have a monopoly on the truth or the answers.

The problem is that the racism is very subtle--such as steering a poster new to the area to schools w/larger white populations--so they don't meet criteria for removal.

Right, but if you see that happening, can't you jump in with a post suggesting an option that you think is more appropriate? The hypothetical poster you describe may simply be referring the new comer to the only school with which the poster is familiar. Not everything is a conspiracy.

You keep sticking your head in the sand when numerous posters have told you about their experience of racism here. As many have said, the racism is often unwitting, which you don’t seem to be willing to accept. And you wonder why more BIPOC posters like me don’t post here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think we’re talking past each other here.

Generally, I don’t think Brookings has to offer solutions to problems it identifies in order for its research to make accurate truth claims.

I also think they are right about what they identify here. Not universally, but more right than wrong.

I don’t expect “someone else” to solve this problem. When I recognize the dynamics they’re describing in my own life, I try to take steps to lessen them. With the climate here being what it is lately, I’m not down for describing those steps. That climate issue is worth some of your energy. It’s worse than it has been. That, more than Brookings, is going to cut into your traffic after the initial bump.

Regardless: Brookings doesn’t have to identify solutions to be identifying problems.

Talking past each other or not, we are definitely having trouble communicating. Because neither Brookings nor you propose alternative actions for DCUM posters, all you have to offer is criticism. You say that your criticism is correct. But my argument is that while our users are making choices that might not be perfect, they are still the best choices available to them. If there are better choices, what are they? You won't say and Brookings didn't say. I assume that whatever secrets you are keeping are unknown to our users, so even though better choices may secretly exist, they are unknown to our posters who are still making the best choices among the alternatives known to them.

It really seems like common sense that if you are going to criticize someone's actions, you should be able to tell them what they should do differently. Otherwise, it is not clear that you wouldn't do exactly the same thing they are doing if you were in their circumstances.

Considering that the anti - racist (sorry if you don’t like that word) education movement is still searching to find those answers, maybe don’t get so pissy when people don’t have all the answers. I can tell you that this site has a racism problem without having all the solutions. You could start by being less reactive and more reflective

I've been reflective for the 15 years I've run the site. The biggest part of my job is removing racist posts. It is impossible to read every thread, let alone every post. But I do my best with the help of a lot of posters who care enough to report posts rather than just complain.

Oh yeah, I appreciate that you are honest enough to explain that the education movement is still searching for answers. I would just ask you what you expect from parents who are trying to find schools for their kids who also don't know those answers? Perhaps reflection is something that more than I should do? I don't think any of use have a monopoly on the truth or the answers.

The problem is that the racism is very subtle--such as steering a poster new to the area to schools w/larger white populations--so they don't meet criteria for removal.

So you think it's 'very subtle racism' to tell a family with a $1.5M house budget 'looking for good schools in DC' to get a house in-boundary for a Deal feeder? No. Nope. Noooooo. No-one in that dialogue is racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I thought it was good, up until the last bit, defending parents -- it comes across as defensive. Residential and educational segregation is real, and what we think of as a "good" school is often tied up in race. Even "objective" measures like test scores reflect racial disparities.

Parents always say they just want good schools for their children, but that doesn't mean that they aren't participating in and perpetuating a racially biased system. It would be helpful if white parents (which includes me) were willing to be a little more introspective and real with ourselves about the choices we are making and why we are making them. You can acknowledge that parents, like everyone else, can be actively racist, or have racist blind spots, or benefit from a racist system, while still pointing out the serious problems with the Brookings' study methodology.

The premise of the report is that we are a bunch of segregationists. They say this throughout the report. I hardly think I can ignore the allegation. Residential and educational segregation is real, but it was not created by the posters in our forum. The solution goes well beyond them. That said, I will rethink that section but I doubt I will remove it altogether.

Even if they did not create the system they may perpetuate it in various ways, even if unintentional. I mean, if implicit bias is a real thing, why can’t unintentional perpetuation of systemic racism be one also? This is nothing that hasn’t already been found in other work (see Dream Hoarders for popular discussion of some of this).

A systemic problem can only be fixed with systemic solutions, not shaming and finger-pointing, or low-key shaming and finger pointing with the whole 'unintentionally perpetuating'. Sure, by eating certain foods, I'm unintentionally perpetuating all sorts of environmental ills, but we can't all be Greta Thunberg. To systemic problems, you need systemic solutions.

[Anonymous]

But systemic includes you . . . right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But systemic includes you . . . right?

No.
I am an end-user of the system, and a voter. I can only be held accountable for my choices in voting and how I treat people around me. If the school that will nurture my child has more white people, if the system is such that the schools that will nurture my child have more white people, it is completely pointless to use advocacy energy on shaming me or accusing me of 'unintentionally perpetuating racism.

[Anonymous]

Bottom line, I think, is that there are a lot of jobs that can be done really well from home. But writing a report for Brookings without child-care for your tiny kids underfoot will likely produce mediocrity, and we'll forgive it, just like Brookings did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But systemic includes you . . . right?

No.
I am an end-user of the system, and a voter. I can only be held accountable for my choices in voting and how I treat people around me. If the school that will nurture my child has more white people, if the system is such that the schools that will nurture my child have more white people, it is completely pointless to use advocacy energy on shaming me or accusing me of 'unintentionally perpetuating racism.

you are right you are responsible for nothing

nothing you do affects anyone else

clearly nothing learned from the pandemic

[Anonymous]

dcum were given the option to self reflect and yet lives up to their own stereotype every single time

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think responding to this at all is a mistake.

I 100% agree.

Yes because any meaningful response would start with the fact that all your primary posters have elected to live in neighborhoods that barred AAs and often Jews from purchasing properties there. This impacts everything right through today.