So realistically, when do you think somewhat normal full time f2f education will resume?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:January or February - it would be insane to open schools without a vaccine since it will vastly increase the spread of the virus.

If there are no deaths of kids attending school (even if lots of them get sick) in the fall, then schools will reopen in January. If kids are dying (even a small number), or if illness rates and deaths among adults get so bad that they have to completely close schools then they will likely not reopen until a vaccine is found.

At least 100 grocery store workers have died from covid, but the grocery stores are still open.

As a society we tend to prioritize children's lives over adults. The older the person, the less value we put on their lives. It's unfortunate, but it's just how America tends to be. The death of kids attributed to their attending school will keep enough parents from sending their kids in the spring which will cause all schools to go to disctance learning until a vaccine is created.

We're keeping schools closed because we prioritize children over adults?!

I apologize for being rude, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:January or February - it would be insane to open schools without a vaccine since it will vastly increase the spread of the virus.

If there are no deaths of kids attending school (even if lots of them get sick) in the fall, then schools will reopen in January. If kids are dying (even a small number), or if illness rates and deaths among adults get so bad that they have to completely close schools then they will likely not reopen until a vaccine is found.

At least 100 grocery store workers have died from covid, but the grocery stores are still open.

As a society we tend to prioritize children's lives over adults. The older the person, the less value we put on their lives. It's unfortunate, but it's just how America tends to be. The death of kids attributed to their attending school will keep enough parents from sending their kids in the spring which will cause all schools to go to disctance learning until a vaccine is created.

We're keeping schools closed because we prioritize children over adults?!

I apologize for being rude, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing gang, we don't know for sure and we are playing with people's lives. Here's a report about Texas daycares and outbreaks.

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/01/texas-day-care-coronavirus-cases-rising/?utm_campaign=trib-social-buttons&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2DWuY1GwMETH3GXg2d_aq0WOR3KlNAe15X9y-Le0uP3YHt65cxi77Vl2Y

I think Fall 2021 is our best bet. Don't forget the people who won't want to vaccinate their kids assuming we have a vaccine. What do you do with them?

Those employees weren’t taking even the most basic precautions, such as wearing masks.

Right? There are *adults* working in these settings, and if you don’t think they contribute to community transmission, I don’t know what to say.

Sure. But not nearly as many as kids, the density of which is always cited as the reason schools can’t open. The adults can protect themselves from each other (and the kids from them) with masks. If it’s mainly the adults who are infectious, a school is not that different from any other workplace where you have to interact with people. In other countries where schools have opened or never closed, teachers have not been found to be at higher risk relative to other professions.

I work in a hospital. Do you think all of us hospital employees are low-risk? We're not. I'm only 35 but I've had some strange autoimmune issues in the past. There are lots of employees in their 60's and up. God knows how many of us have asthma, or live with at risk family members. But our job requires us to be here in person to take care of the rest of you, in proximity to other people, including known Covid cases. And while our adult patients shouldn't be as bad as booger eating kindergarteners, some are actually worse at life and health.... So, if we don't feel it's safe to do our job in person, we have to find another job. Otherwise, we wear our masks, perform diligent hand hygiene, distance from each other on the rare occasions it's possible and keep on keeping on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

There is no danger of a child being involved in s motor vehicle accident in the classroom. There is a possibility of s child being exposed to COVID in the classroom and endangering the lives of family members by exposing them to the virus.

My colleague’s spouse died of COVID (in a hospital in MD, with no family members present). A friend’s sibling has been on a ventilator for weeks and is rapidly deteriorating. Two people in my neighborhood had complications with COVID (both hospitalized). I think if people have family members or friends who have suffered or lost their lives dealing with COVID, they would feel differently about the situation.

I am a teacher in Montgomery County (25+ years). There is no doubt that in-person learning is the best environment for children. Distance learning is a challenge for sure. However, I have serious reservations about returning to the classroom before it is safe to do so. A classroom is a Petri dish of germs. Parents regularly send their sick children to school (giving them a fever reducer before sending them off to school). The flu spread like wild fire through my classroom this past winter. I trust myself and precautions I would take. However, I do not trust the parents in the community to take the same precautions and be truthful with symptoms, exposure, etc. I also have a spouse who has underlying conditions that it him at risk for severe illness if he were to contract COVID.

A new study (from Yale) is showing that “silent spreaders” could be responsible for half of cases. So much transmission can happen before people are actively ill. There are no easy answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

There is no danger of a child being involved in s motor vehicle accident in the classroom. There is a possibility of s child being exposed to COVID in the classroom and endangering the lives of family members by exposing them to the virus.

My colleague’s spouse died of COVID (in a hospital in MD, with no family members present). A friend’s sibling has been on a ventilator for weeks and is rapidly deteriorating. Two people in my neighborhood had complications with COVID (both hospitalized). I think if people have family members or friends who have suffered or lost their lives dealing with COVID, they would feel differently about the situation.

I am a teacher in Montgomery County (25+ years). There is no doubt that in-person learning is the best environment for children. Distance learning is a challenge for sure. However, I have serious reservations about returning to the classroom before it is safe to do so. A classroom is a Petri dish of germs. Parents regularly send their sick children to school (giving them a fever reducer before sending them off to school). The flu spread like wild fire through my classroom this past winter. I trust myself and precautions I would take. However, I do not trust the parents in the community to take the same precautions and be truthful with symptoms, exposure, etc. I also have a spouse who has underlying conditions that it him at risk for severe illness if he were to contract COVID.

A new study (from Yale) is showing that “silent spreaders” could be responsible for half of cases. So much transmission can happen before people are actively ill. There are no easy answers.

PP said, "If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school."

There were almost 700 dead kids in this country because they got in a motor vehicle, yet no parent was too scared to put their kid in a motor vehicle.

I don't know how you define "safe to do so," but if you define it as zero risk of getting covid while doing your job of teaching in the classroom, then you need to ask MCPS for accommodations based on your spouse's medical conditions, or you need to find a different job. I'm not saying that to be vindictive. I'm saying it because it's true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

You are proving my point. This is why seatbelt and car seat laws are more stringent for kids than they are for adults. Also, comparing automobile accidents to this virus is a false equivalent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:January or February - it would be insane to open schools without a vaccine since it will vastly increase the spread of the virus.

If there are no deaths of kids attending school (even if lots of them get sick) in the fall, then schools will reopen in January. If kids are dying (even a small number), or if illness rates and deaths among adults get so bad that they have to completely close schools then they will likely not reopen until a vaccine is found.

At least 100 grocery store workers have died from covid, but the grocery stores are still open.

As a society we tend to prioritize children's lives over adults. The older the person, the less value we put on their lives. It's unfortunate, but it's just how America tends to be. The death of kids attributed to their attending school will keep enough parents from sending their kids in the spring which will cause all schools to go to disctance learning until a vaccine is created.

We're keeping schools closed because we prioritize children over adults?!

I apologize for being rude, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

Every year, kids die from the flu, which they likely acquired at school. Per CDC: "Since 2004-2005, flu-related deaths in children reported to CDC during regular flu seasons have ranged from 37 to 187 deaths. Even though the reported number of deaths during the 2017-2018 flu season was 187, CDC’s mathematical models that account for the underreporting of flu-related deaths in children estimate the actual number was closer to 600." (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm). Given that Covid appears to be much less deadly to kids than the flu, we'd be crazy to keep kids out of school if even just 10 kids die from Covid after returning to school, as you suggest. I'm not saying it won't happen as the level of hysteria about Covid is high, but it would not be a rational response considering that those pediatric flu deaths every year don't even make the news in most cases.

And no, I'm not saying Covid is no worse than the flu in general. That is only true for children, for whom the flu is more dangerous.

Also, there is nothing wrong with considering a child's death a bigger tragedy than the death of especially elderly adults. A child has their whole life ahead of them with all its potential, whereas a 70 or 80 year old has already lived most of theirs. It has nothing to do with the value of the person per se, or with whether we view children as helpless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Fall 2021, sadly. There are two ways I think they'd be open to full-time F2F:

1. Everyone vaccinated. Even if we have vaccine by the end of this year, it will take at least 6 months to vaccinate 330 million people.
2. Rapid testing (like, answer in an hour). Then if any kid shows symptoms, test the whole classroom the same day, so you have results before they even go home.

#2 requires a higher level of acceptance of risk. Based on watching the BOE meeting earlier this week, I'm skeptical MCPS will even be open to this should it be possible.

They should be doing the testing at every school, every week. At least for all staff. If we had even a slightly competent federal response this would be have been an urgent task to be done this summer: mass availability of testing for public schools. Instead we got a 4th of July fly over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

You are proving my point. This is why seatbelt and car seat laws are more stringent for kids than they are for adults. Also, comparing automobile accidents to this virus is a false equivalent.

So parents are fine putting their kids in cars, even though that kills hundreds and hundreds of kids in the US every year, but would not be fine sending their kids to school if there were 10 school-related kid deaths in the US from covid, because...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:January or February - it would be insane to open schools without a vaccine since it will vastly increase the spread of the virus.

If there are no deaths of kids attending school (even if lots of them get sick) in the fall, then schools will reopen in January. If kids are dying (even a small number), or if illness rates and deaths among adults get so bad that they have to completely close schools then they will likely not reopen until a vaccine is found.

At least 100 grocery store workers have died from covid, but the grocery stores are still open.

As a society we tend to prioritize children's lives over adults. The older the person, the less value we put on their lives. It's unfortunate, but it's just how America tends to be. The death of kids attributed to their attending school will keep enough parents from sending their kids in the spring which will cause all schools to go to disctance learning until a vaccine is created.

We're keeping schools closed because we prioritize children over adults?!

I apologize for being rude, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

Every year, kids die from the flu, which they likely acquired at school. Per CDC: "Since 2004-2005, flu-related deaths in children reported to CDC during regular flu seasons have ranged from 37 to 187 deaths. Even though the reported number of deaths during the 2017-2018 flu season was 187, CDC’s mathematical models that account for the underreporting of flu-related deaths in children estimate the actual number was closer to 600." (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm). Given that Covid appears to be much less deadly to kids than the flu, we'd be crazy to keep kids out of school if even just 10 kids die from Covid after returning to school, as you suggest. I'm not saying it won't happen as the level of hysteria about Covid is high, but it would not be a rational response considering that those pediatric flu deaths every year don't even make the news in most cases.

And no, I'm not saying Covid is no worse than the flu in general. That is only true for children, for whom the flu is more dangerous.

Also, there is nothing wrong with considering a child's death a bigger tragedy than the death of especially elderly adults. A child has their whole life ahead of them with all its potential, whereas a 70 or 80 year old has already lived most of theirs. It has nothing to do with the value of the person per se, or with whether we view children as helpless.

You're right about the flu, of course. You know what else is true about the flu? There is a reasonably effective vaccine for it. Not perfect, but worth getting. So I'm with you. When there is a reasonably effective vaccine for COVID-19, we should think about it, and going back to school f2f, in similar terms as we think about the school and flu. The lengths people will go to to compare COVID-19 to the flu are just incredible to me. People, this is not the flu. This is much worse than the flu. Just look at the death toll nationally. Even if kids generally fare better than adults, do you think they are only going to encounter other kids (and no adults) at school, or when they come home having been infected with the virus?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You're right about the flu, of course. You know what else is true about the flu? There is a reasonably effective vaccine for it. Not perfect, but worth getting. So I'm with you. When there is a reasonably effective vaccine for COVID-19, we should think about it, and going back to school f2f, in similar terms as we think about the school and flu. The lengths people will go to to compare COVID-19 to the flu are just incredible to me. People, this is not the flu. This is much worse than the flu. Just look at the death toll nationally. Even if kids generally fare better than adults, do you think they are only going to encounter other kids (and no adults) at school, or when they come home having been infected with the virus?

DP. I will note that the PP's data on child flu deaths is WITH the vaccine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:January or February - it would be insane to open schools without a vaccine since it will vastly increase the spread of the virus.

If there are no deaths of kids attending school (even if lots of them get sick) in the fall, then schools will reopen in January. If kids are dying (even a small number), or if illness rates and deaths among adults get so bad that they have to completely close schools then they will likely not reopen until a vaccine is found.

At least 100 grocery store workers have died from covid, but the grocery stores are still open.

As a society we tend to prioritize children's lives over adults. The older the person, the less value we put on their lives. It's unfortunate, but it's just how America tends to be. The death of kids attributed to their attending school will keep enough parents from sending their kids in the spring which will cause all schools to go to disctance learning until a vaccine is created.

We're keeping schools closed because we prioritize children over adults?!

I apologize for being rude, but that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard today.

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

Every year, kids die from the flu, which they likely acquired at school. Per CDC: "Since 2004-2005, flu-related deaths in children reported to CDC during regular flu seasons have ranged from 37 to 187 deaths. Even though the reported number of deaths during the 2017-2018 flu season was 187, CDC’s mathematical models that account for the underreporting of flu-related deaths in children estimate the actual number was closer to 600." (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/highrisk/children.htm). Given that Covid appears to be much less deadly to kids than the flu, we'd be crazy to keep kids out of school if even just 10 kids die from Covid after returning to school, as you suggest. I'm not saying it won't happen as the level of hysteria about Covid is high, but it would not be a rational response considering that those pediatric flu deaths every year don't even make the news in most cases.

And no, I'm not saying Covid is no worse than the flu in general. That is only true for children, for whom the flu is more dangerous.

Also, there is nothing wrong with considering a child's death a bigger tragedy than the death of especially elderly adults. A child has their whole life ahead of them with all its potential, whereas a 70 or 80 year old has already lived most of theirs. It has nothing to do with the value of the person per se, or with whether we view children as helpless.

You're right about the flu, of course. You know what else is true about the flu? There is a reasonably effective vaccine for it. Not perfect, but worth getting. So I'm with you. When there is a reasonably effective vaccine for COVID-19, we should think about it, and going back to school f2f, in similar terms as we think about the school and flu. The lengths people will go to to compare COVID-19 to the flu are just incredible to me. People, this is not the flu. This is much worse than the flu. Just look at the death toll nationally. Even if kids generally fare better than adults, do you think they are only going to encounter other kids (and no adults) at school, or when they come home having been infected with the virus?

You are missing my point, which wasn't to compare the general risks of the flu to Covid. For the point I was making, i.e. comparing your hypothetical 10 pediatric Covid fatalities in case of school reopening to the actual hundred+ (or, according to CDC, likely 600) annual pediatric deaths from the flu, it is irrelevant whether we have a vaccine or not. These flu deaths happen despite the partially effective flu vaccine. Therefore, it is not logical to say we cannot have kids in school until a vaccine because a small number might die of Covid (which is what you said), while we apparently have no problem sending them despite the actual, not hypothetical flu deaths that happen every year despite a vaccine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You're right about the flu, of course. You know what else is true about the flu? There is a reasonably effective vaccine for it. Not perfect, but worth getting. So I'm with you. When there is a reasonably effective vaccine for COVID-19, we should think about it, and going back to school f2f, in similar terms as we think about the school and flu. The lengths people will go to to compare COVID-19 to the flu are just incredible to me. People, this is not the flu. This is much worse than the flu. Just look at the death toll nationally. Even if kids generally fare better than adults, do you think they are only going to encounter other kids (and no adults) at school, or when they come home having been infected with the virus?

DP. I will note that the PP's data on child flu deaths is WITH the vaccine.

Exactly. I also said nothing about the potential issue of kids infecting adults either at school or at home. That's a separate question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You are reading much more into what I am saying than what I said.

I said we prioritize children's lives over adults (lives). Meaning, if something kills 100 adults (going to work at a grocery store) our reaction is very different than if that thing (or in this case something similar) kills 100 kids (going to school). If there are even 10 dead kids in this country because they went to school, parents are going to be too scared to send their kids to school. This is largely because we view kids as being helpless and we view adults of having a choice to work or not work (even though that is often not true).

"In the United States, 675 children 12 years old and younger died as occupants in motor vehicle crashes, and nearly 116,000 were injured in 2017"

https://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/child_passenger_safety/cps-factsheet.html

You are proving my point. This is why seatbelt and car seat laws are more stringent for kids than they are for adults. Also, comparing automobile accidents to this virus is a false equivalent.

So parents are fine putting their kids in cars, even though that kills hundreds and hundreds of kids in the US every year, but would not be fine sending their kids to school if there were 10 school-related kid deaths in the US from covid, because...?

Please try to understand this: the kids aren't living on an island, taught by and sheltering with only other kids. They are part of larger society, as are the schools, and the larger society includes vulnerable aduts who can get very sick and die from COVID -- COVID that is spread to them by kids. (Kids can get very sick and die, too, for that matter.)

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that 36,560 people died in traffice accidents in 2018, including 1,038 kids. You know how many people have died from COVID in just the last six months? It's 133,000 and counting -- more than three times the number of people who died in traffic accidents over the whole year in 2018. And auto accidents are not contagious.

You limit or pause f2f instruction not just so fewer kids will die, but so that fewer people overall will die.