Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

I'm not chopping anyone off at the knees. We've already covered the fact that the reenactment of the last supper is in no way intended to convert Jews. And this poster keeps going on and on about some obscure anecdote as if one case is indicative of an actual problem. It isn't. One anecdote is not data. Show me evidence of many churches trying to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into attending a surprise conversion event. If you can't, then I will continue to call people out for suggesting that their feverish imaginings are an actual problem.

As was stated before, I would not expect you to be able to understand. You just don't get it and never will. Say what you want about imagined this and made up that and wanting to believe in situations that don't exist. You are incapable of understanding where Jews are coming from. We don't have a shared history.

Fine. Walk through life as a misunderstood victim. Have you thought of moving to a kibbutz somewhere? Because you seem incapable of living happily in a pluralistic society.

It's sad for you that you feel that way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

I'm not chopping anyone off at the knees. We've already covered the fact that the reenactment of the last supper is in no way intended to convert Jews. And this poster keeps going on and on about some obscure anecdote as if one case is indicative of an actual problem. It isn't. One anecdote is not data. Show me evidence of many churches trying to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into attending a surprise conversion event. If you can't, then I will continue to call people out for suggesting that their feverish imaginings are an actual problem.

As was stated before, I would not expect you to be able to understand. You just don't get it and never will. Say what you want about imagined this and made up that and wanting to believe in situations that don't exist. You are incapable of understanding where Jews are coming from. We don't have a shared history.

Fine. Walk through life as a misunderstood victim. Have you thought of moving to a kibbutz somewhere? Because you seem incapable of living happily in a pluralistic society.

+1000

[Anonymous]

Well, I think it's sad that you and others seem intent to deliberately misconstrue everything that Christians have explained about this practice here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP, you are wrong. I was the first to post on page one. Go back and read it. Then come back and try to tell me that was not an attempt to explain in good faith.

Also read 9:36, 9:40, 10:33, 11:01, 15:30, 15:44, 15:49 from yesterday. All of these were good faith attempts to explain or to address questions and misconceptions. So once again you are being disingenuous, not to mention untruthful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

*laugh* Thanks for the tip, but trust me, American Jews (at least) are experienced at fielding attempted conversion attempts.

Not that you care about me, but FYI, I agree that it's not necessarily offensive. Some people aren't offensive at all. (IME, the little old ladies are particularly skilled, the teenagers, particularly unskilled.)

As you well know, this is not a tenet for Catholics so I'm not talking about you. Identify as a Catholic and you won't elicit this in others. Identify as a Christian and know that you are associating yourself with elements that can cross lines--some which consider it their responsibility to cross lines.

This post had nothing to do with passover. I just thought it was an interesting blind spot that you weren't aware how it feels to be preached at.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plus, I don't know one Jew who has ever stumbled into a Christian church during Holy Week looking for an authentic Jewish seder. You honestly think a Jew would make such a "mistake?". Really?

Yes I, honestly, do.

Well, not to be unkind, but I fail to see how that is the church's fault. That's called extreme naivety. It should be obvious to everyone everywhere that Christian churches don't conduct authentic Jewish rituals.

Have you heard of Fabrangen? Google it. It is a local Jewish organization that does not have a physical location. Every year they host high holy day services in a church downtown. So: you walk into a church and see a jewish ceremony.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy."

And your assertion is that this is a widespread phenomenon? Let me tell you what would happen if one of these people wandered into a church unsuspecting. They would politely be informed they were in the wrong place. The clergy wouldn't tackle them and baptize them against their will.

Where did I say that I think this is a widespread phenomenon? Your assertion is that it "obviously" never happens. You are wrong. That's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

*laugh* Thanks for the tip, but trust me, American Jews (at least) are experienced at fielding attempted conversion attempts.

Not that you care about me, but FYI, I agree that it's not necessarily offensive. Some people aren't offensive at all. (IME, the little old ladies are particularly skilled, the teenagers, particularly unskilled.)

As you well know, this is not a tenet for Catholics so I'm not talking about you. Identify as a Catholic and you won't elicit this in others. Identify as a Christian and know that you are associating yourself with elements that can cross lines--some which consider it their responsibility to cross lines.

This post had nothing to do with passover. I just thought it was an interesting blind spot that you weren't aware how it feels to be preached at.

How do you know I am not aware? I have been waylayed by Mormons, Evangelicals, Scientologists, and others. Jews aren't unique in being proselytized to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plus, I don't know one Jew who has ever stumbled into a Christian church during Holy Week looking for an authentic Jewish seder. You honestly think a Jew would make such a "mistake?". Really?

Yes I, honestly, do.

Well, not to be unkind, but I fail to see how that is the church's fault. That's called extreme naivety. It should be obvious to everyone everywhere that Christian churches don't conduct authentic Jewish rituals.

Have you heard of Fabrangen? Google it. It is a local Jewish organization that does not have a physical location. Every year they host high holy day services in a church downtown. So: you walk into a church and see a jewish ceremony.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy."

And your assertion is that this is a widespread phenomenon? Let me tell you what would happen if one of these people wandered into a church unsuspecting. They would politely be informed they were in the wrong place. The clergy wouldn't tackle them and baptize them against their will.

Where did I say that I think this is a widespread phenomenon? Your assertion is that it "obviously" never happens. You are wrong. That's all.

No, the facts of what I stated are true. A Jewish group using a church building to hold a service is not the same thing as the church itself conducting the ritual, and you know it.

[Anonymous]

Plus, PP, I assume that people in this group would know where their services were being held, correct? Instead of just wandering aimlessly looking for any old church with a sign about a seder? Point is I doubt that unsuspecting Jews walking into the wrong location is likely, and even if they did, nothing scary would happen to them.

[Anonymous]

Christians have a long, long history of "adopting" other religious and cultural traditions and branding it "christian".

Then they'll always use the argument of "well you don't own such and such" and we are not doing anything wrong, and your just being too sensitive.

If you study history and the evangelism of christianity worldwide this is not new, so frankly I'm surprised that others are surprised by this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, you are wrong. I was the first to post on page one. Go back and read it. Then come back and try to tell me that was not an attempt to explain in good faith.

Also read 9:36, 9:40, 10:33, 11:01, 15:30, 15:44, 15:49 from yesterday. All of these were good faith attempts to explain or to address questions and misconceptions. So once again you are being disingenuous, not to mention untruthful.

Oy. Yes I recognize that they were meant well. Good faith isn't exactly the right term and I probably shouldn't have used it. Earlier posts may have meant well but they did not describe the events to the point that I, as a Jew, felt like I understood how these events are or aren't similar to what I do. So I asked for more info.

Remember I am not OP, please. I came at this thread when it was already several vitriolic pages long. The tone had turned a corner by the middle of page 1, due in part to OP's use of language. It took and is taking a lot of effort to ignore the noise and find the signal. I had seen a few answers to the question that were attempting to be above board (the ones you mention) but they were still responding specifically to OP and her tone, and OPs questions are different from the ones I had.

I recognize that saying "As a consequence, these Seders are conducted with the utmost respect" may be said in good faith. But it's not actually an answer that gives me any information. That's not a dis of your intent, how could you know what I want to know if we don't have a conversation? Hearing that they are not widely advertised, that they aren't "seders" in the modern sense but make symbolic attempts to get closer to the historical experience, and that they aren't even that common tells me more about the practice than any number of well-intentioned assertions about respect.

Still think I'm disingenuous and untruthful? If so, I give up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

*laugh* Thanks for the tip, but trust me, American Jews (at least) are experienced at fielding attempted conversion attempts.

Not that you care about me, but FYI, I agree that it's not necessarily offensive. Some people aren't offensive at all. (IME, the little old ladies are particularly skilled, the teenagers, particularly unskilled.)

As you well know, this is not a tenet for Catholics so I'm not talking about you. Identify as a Catholic and you won't elicit this in others. Identify as a Christian and know that you are associating yourself with elements that can cross lines--some which consider it their responsibility to cross lines.

This post had nothing to do with passover. I just thought it was an interesting blind spot that you weren't aware how it feels to be preached at.

How do you know I am not aware? I have been waylayed by Mormons, Evangelicals, Scientologists, and others. Jews aren't unique in being proselytized to.

Duh. I didn't think you were aware because of the tone of the bolded part above--rude and dismissive with no sign that you understand or care WHY one might think a church-run Seder could be disrespectful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christians have a long, long history of "adopting" other religious and cultural traditions and branding it "christian".

Then they'll always use the argument of "well you don't own such and such" and we are not doing anything wrong, and your just being too sensitive.

If you study history and the evangelism of christianity worldwide this is not new, so frankly I'm surprised that others are surprised by this.

It's a Judeo-Christian tradition because our religion was founded by a Jew. The traditions belonged to the founders of the religion, Christians didn't adopt them, they've been passed down. Again, this is ridiculous on the part of any Jew who thinks they have a right to prevent people of other traditions from learning about their own history. Why do you care anyway? Can't you find something else to worry about? Or do you just feel the need to gratuitously Christian bash?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

*laugh* Thanks for the tip, but trust me, American Jews (at least) are experienced at fielding attempted conversion attempts.

Not that you care about me, but FYI, I agree that it's not necessarily offensive. Some people aren't offensive at all. (IME, the little old ladies are particularly skilled, the teenagers, particularly unskilled.)

As you well know, this is not a tenet for Catholics so I'm not talking about you. Identify as a Catholic and you won't elicit this in others. Identify as a Christian and know that you are associating yourself with elements that can cross lines--some which consider it their responsibility to cross lines.

This post had nothing to do with passover. I just thought it was an interesting blind spot that you weren't aware how it feels to be preached at.

How do you know I am not aware? I have been waylayed by Mormons, Evangelicals, Scientologists, and others. Jews aren't unique in being proselytized to.

Duh. I didn't think you were aware because of the tone of the bolded part above--rude and dismissive with no sign that you understand or care WHY one might think a church-run Seder could be disrespectful.

I don't think anything that I wrote was rude or dismissive. I find it hilarious that people think Christian clergy spend the bulk of their time thinking of ways to offend people of other faiths. Or that people spend so much time and energy being angry about the attempts of some Christians to engage in conversion. If you are strong in your faith, what does it matter? When I have been proselytized to by others it has generally always been a respectful conversation. The ones that haven't don't bother me, though. I know they have NO chance of converting me, so I just end the conversation and move on. You and others on here seem to take it really, really personally.

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. You seem to be determined to take offense at things that are in no way meant to offend you. So have at it. Christians are bad and disrespectful. Fine. Let's move on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Christians have a long, long history of "adopting" other religious and cultural traditions and branding it "christian".

Then they'll always use the argument of "well you don't own such and such" and we are not doing anything wrong, and your just being too sensitive.

If you study history and the evangelism of christianity worldwide this is not new, so frankly I'm surprised that others are surprised by this.

I suspect you actually know very little about Christian religious history.