Really don't like seeing the signs on Christian churches offering Seders

[Anonymous]

10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm just curious to know why OP and other orthodox think that they have a lock on history and that people of other religions are not allowed to talk about historical events.

What do you mean by "orthodox?" Do you mean Orthodox Jews? Is OP orthodox? I haven't read very single post, but from the posts I have read, I don't see the word orthodox mentioned. What you say above is an extremely broad generalization. What makes you think that all Orthodox Jews, if that is who you are talking about, have a lock on history? My sister is orthodox, and she doesn't believe she has a lock on history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic here, I went to my first Passover Seder last night at our neighbor's house, what a great experience. Certainly gives me an appreciation for better understanding and respecting the building blocks for Christianity.

Ugh. Glad I didnt invite you to my house.

Trust me, I'd never want to set a foot in your door anyways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Catholic here, I went to my first Passover Seder last night at our neighbor's house, what a great experience. Certainly gives me an appreciation for better understanding and respecting the building blocks for Christianity.

Ugh. Glad I didnt invite you to my house.

Trust me, I'd never want to set a foot in your door anyways.

Yeah, the trolls are here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I am the Jewish being called "asshole," "jerk," "dense" and "stupid idiot."

If you think this is a way to promote interfaith discussion, you are wrong. 8:09 and 8:12 -- are you the same poster? I think you need anger management class.

I never once said anything anti-Christian in my posts, I was simply trying to help you understand why some Jews might be offended by a Christian seder. Not sure why that is "insulting" to Christians.

Your unwillingness to even acknowledge that Jews might be be legitimately uncomfortable with this speaks volumes.

FWIW -- a brief survey of my Jewish friends ALL agreed with me. They also said I was nuts trying to convince strangers on DCUM that Jews have a right to feel this way.

No, I get why some might be uncomfortable - it's call ignorance, as in not knowing anything about it. We've tried to explain but you still insist on being upset, ignoring those explanations, and deliberately misconstruing the intent. Now you are being disingenuous on top of it. THAT is what people are taking exception to. You are basically upset over semantics - a pretty thin reason to be as offended as you are, by almost any standard.

Nobody tried to explain. I'm the PP who asked, out of ignorance, if the christian-hosted seders were modern or more symbolic recreations of the last supper, and my throat was jumped down for asking. I didn't get an answer. I can imagine respectful and disrespectful ways to hold christian observations of passover rituals and I'm sure both take place in practice, no matter the symbolic intent.

Oh, so you 're 20:52, who innocently asked whether we kill a lamb and eat it that day, and mocked the idea of us speaking Hebrew or using pronouns like "we". PP is right, you're incredibly disingenuous if you expected a thoughtful reply to such a nasty post.

Or they could be 19:31. It's hard to tell, but it could have been an honest question.

Yep. I was 19:31, not 20:52. And THANK YOU to 10:14 who finally answered what I thought was a simple question but which got so thoroughly misunderstood. Sheesh!

I don't know much about UU but if they really do have rules for respectfully learning about and engaging in other's traditions it sounds like something Jews and Christians of all stripes could learn from, starting with this thread. As I said in what's quoted above, I can imagine a variety of ways to hold a christ-focused observation of passover. The devil, so to speak, is in the details of why and how it's being done. Just because the good folks on this board can't imagine themselves doing it disrespectfully doesn't mean all such observations are necessarily respectful. Hence OP's post which can be understood as "what is really going on here? it gives me an uncomfortable feeling." Yes, she said "icky." Too bad that so many people chose to be offended by that instead of asking (as some seemed to, to their credit) "why would a Jew feel icky about this practice?"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

I'm not chopping anyone off at the knees. We've already covered the fact that the reenactment of the last supper is in no way intended to convert Jews. And this poster keeps going on and on about some obscure anecdote as if one case is indicative of an actual problem. It isn't. One anecdote is not data. Show me evidence of many churches trying to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into attending a surprise conversion event. If you can't, then I will continue to call people out for suggesting that their feverish imaginings are an actual problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I am the Jewish being called "asshole," "jerk," "dense" and "stupid idiot."

If you think this is a way to promote interfaith discussion, you are wrong. 8:09 and 8:12 -- are you the same poster? I think you need anger management class.

I never once said anything anti-Christian in my posts, I was simply trying to help you understand why some Jews might be offended by a Christian seder. Not sure why that is "insulting" to Christians.

Your unwillingness to even acknowledge that Jews might be be legitimately uncomfortable with this speaks volumes.

FWIW -- a brief survey of my Jewish friends ALL agreed with me. They also said I was nuts trying to convince strangers on DCUM that Jews have a right to feel this way.

No, I get why some might be uncomfortable - it's call ignorance, as in not knowing anything about it. We've tried to explain but you still insist on being upset, ignoring those explanations, and deliberately misconstruing the intent. Now you are being disingenuous on top of it. THAT is what people are taking exception to. You are basically upset over semantics - a pretty thin reason to be as offended as you are, by almost any standard.

Nobody tried to explain. I'm the PP who asked, out of ignorance, if the christian-hosted seders were modern or more symbolic recreations of the last supper, and my throat was jumped down for asking. I didn't get an answer. I can imagine respectful and disrespectful ways to hold christian observations of passover rituals and I'm sure both take place in practice, no matter the symbolic intent.

Oh, so you 're 20:52, who innocently asked whether we kill a lamb and eat it that day, and mocked the idea of us speaking Hebrew or using pronouns like "we". PP is right, you're incredibly disingenuous if you expected a thoughtful reply to such a nasty post.

Or they could be 19:31. It's hard to tell, but it could have been an honest question.

Yep. I was 19:31, not 20:52. And THANK YOU to 10:14 who finally answered what I thought was a simple question but which got so thoroughly misunderstood. Sheesh!

I don't know much about UU but if they really do have rules for respectfully learning about and engaging in other's traditions it sounds like something Jews and Christians of all stripes could learn from, starting with this thread. As I said in what's quoted above, I can imagine a variety of ways to hold a christ-focused observation of passover. The devil, so to speak, is in the details of why and how it's being done. Just because the good folks on this board can't imagine themselves doing it disrespectfully doesn't mean all such observations are necessarily respectful. Hence OP's post which can be understood as "what is really going on here? it gives me an uncomfortable feeling." Yes, she said "icky." Too bad that so many people chose to be offended by that instead of asking (as some seemed to, to their credit) "why would a Jew feel icky about this practice?"

But the fact that you can "imagine" a disrespectful way that this might be done does not mean that is happening on a widespread basis. So there's that. You are ASSUMING a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Christian (I guess, I'm more Unitarian, but what ever) I find the idea of a Seder being run at a church to be somewhat disrespectful. A Seder is a jewish tradition and unless it is an innerfaith (i.e. attended by both jewish and christian people with the purpose being to teach the christians about the seder) it seems like the church is trying to "look" multi-cultural while making another religious tradition into something of their own. I don't know - UUs are very big on learning about other traditions but we have rules about how to do it respectfully - one of those is having someone of the faith there and telling us how to do it. I can see why some jewish people would find it uncomfortable.

Plus, you just think Christian churches are out there scheming everyday about how to offend other religions? Get a life. Maybe get to know an actual Christian before making uninformed and inflammatory statements.

News flash: this is EXACTLY what prostelytizing feels like to people who are on the receiving end. It's a plain fact that some churches ARE out there everyday talking to people of other religions and trying to get them to become Christians. It is a tenet of the faith for many. Maybe not you, but if you deny that this is a part of Christianity, you don't know much about your own religion. Anyway, to Jews and others who aren't interested, it is very often offensive.

Well then you are too easily offended. Just say thank you but I am very happy in my faith and move on. I am a Catholic and I have never in my life proselytized or been asked to by mu clergy. And I fail to see what holding a reenactment of the last supper for the benefit of a particular congregation only has to do with proselytizing anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plus, I don't know one Jew who has ever stumbled into a Christian church during Holy Week looking for an authentic Jewish seder. You honestly think a Jew would make such a "mistake?". Really?

Yes I, honestly, do.

Well, not to be unkind, but I fail to see how that is the church's fault. That's called extreme naivety. It should be obvious to everyone everywhere that Christian churches don't conduct authentic Jewish rituals.

Have you heard of Fabrangen? Google it. It is a local Jewish organization that does not have a physical location. Every year they host high holy day services in a church downtown. So: you walk into a church and see a jewish ceremony.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

I'm not chopping anyone off at the knees. We've already covered the fact that the reenactment of the last supper is in no way intended to convert Jews. And this poster keeps going on and on about some obscure anecdote as if one case is indicative of an actual problem. It isn't. One anecdote is not data. Show me evidence of many churches trying to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into attending a surprise conversion event. If you can't, then I will continue to call people out for suggesting that their feverish imaginings are an actual problem.

As was stated before, I would not expect you to be able to understand. You just don't get it and never will. Say what you want about imagined this and made up that and wanting to believe in situations that don't exist. You are incapable of understanding where Jews are coming from. We don't have a shared history.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Plus, I don't know one Jew who has ever stumbled into a Christian church during Holy Week looking for an authentic Jewish seder. You honestly think a Jew would make such a "mistake?". Really?

Yes I, honestly, do.

Well, not to be unkind, but I fail to see how that is the church's fault. That's called extreme naivety. It should be obvious to everyone everywhere that Christian churches don't conduct authentic Jewish rituals.

Have you heard of Fabrangen? Google it. It is a local Jewish organization that does not have a physical location. Every year they host high holy day services in a church downtown. So: you walk into a church and see a jewish ceremony.

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, that are dreamt of in your philosophy."

And your assertion is that this is a widespread phenomenon? Let me tell you what would happen if one of these people wandered into a church unsuspecting. They would politely be informed they were in the wrong place. The clergy wouldn't tackle them and baptize them against their will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:10:53, I'm actually seeing a poster who wants to have an exchange of views, for a change. So if we all respect each others' views and concerns, instead of chopping each other off at the knees, then we might all learn something. All of us.

I'm not chopping anyone off at the knees. We've already covered the fact that the reenactment of the last supper is in no way intended to convert Jews. And this poster keeps going on and on about some obscure anecdote as if one case is indicative of an actual problem. It isn't. One anecdote is not data. Show me evidence of many churches trying to hoodwink unsuspecting Jews into attending a surprise conversion event. If you can't, then I will continue to call people out for suggesting that their feverish imaginings are an actual problem.

As was stated before, I would not expect you to be able to understand. You just don't get it and never will. Say what you want about imagined this and made up that and wanting to believe in situations that don't exist. You are incapable of understanding where Jews are coming from. We don't have a shared history.

Fine. Walk through life as a misunderstood victim. Have you thought of moving to a kibbutz somewhere? Because you seem incapable of living happily in a pluralistic society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, I am the Jewish being called "asshole," "jerk," "dense" and "stupid idiot."

If you think this is a way to promote interfaith discussion, you are wrong. 8:09 and 8:12 -- are you the same poster? I think you need anger management class.

I never once said anything anti-Christian in my posts, I was simply trying to help you understand why some Jews might be offended by a Christian seder. Not sure why that is "insulting" to Christians.

Your unwillingness to even acknowledge that Jews might be be legitimately uncomfortable with this speaks volumes.

FWIW -- a brief survey of my Jewish friends ALL agreed with me. They also said I was nuts trying to convince strangers on DCUM that Jews have a right to feel this way.

No, I get why some might be uncomfortable - it's call ignorance, as in not knowing anything about it. We've tried to explain but you still insist on being upset, ignoring those explanations, and deliberately misconstruing the intent. Now you are being disingenuous on top of it. THAT is what people are taking exception to. You are basically upset over semantics - a pretty thin reason to be as offended as you are, by almost any standard.

Nobody tried to explain. I'm the PP who asked, out of ignorance, if the christian-hosted seders were modern or more symbolic recreations of the last supper, and my throat was jumped down for asking. I didn't get an answer. I can imagine respectful and disrespectful ways to hold christian observations of passover rituals and I'm sure both take place in practice, no matter the symbolic intent.

Oh, so you 're 20:52, who innocently asked whether we kill a lamb and eat it that day, and mocked the idea of us speaking Hebrew or using pronouns like "we". PP is right, you're incredibly disingenuous if you expected a thoughtful reply to such a nasty post.

Or they could be 19:31. It's hard to tell, but it could have been an honest question.

Yep. I was 19:31, not 20:52. And THANK YOU to 10:14 who finally answered what I thought was a simple question but which got so thoroughly misunderstood. Sheesh!

I don't know much about UU but if they really do have rules for respectfully learning about and engaging in other's traditions it sounds like something Jews and Christians of all stripes could learn from, starting with this thread. As I said in what's quoted above, I can imagine a variety of ways to hold a christ-focused observation of passover. The devil, so to speak, is in the details of why and how it's being done. Just because the good folks on this board can't imagine themselves doing it disrespectfully doesn't mean all such observations are necessarily respectful. Hence OP's post which can be understood as "what is really going on here? it gives me an uncomfortable feeling." Yes, she said "icky." Too bad that so many people chose to be offended by that instead of asking (as some seemed to, to their credit) "why would a Jew feel icky about this practice?"

But the fact that you can "imagine" a disrespectful way that this might be done does not mean that is happening on a widespread basis. So there's that. You are ASSUMING a lot.

I completely agree that just because I can imagine it doesn't mean it's happening. Hence OP's question and my interest in this thread, as a Jew who only heard about this practice recently.

As for my ASSUMEing, you're wrong. I'm trying NOT TO ASSUME. I had to ask a question twice before I got an answer because PPs were more interested in fighting than engaging on face value. It took 9ish pages before someone described one of these events in good faith.

[Anonymous]

PP, you are wrong. I was the first to post on page one. Go back and read it. Then come back and try to tell me that was not an attempt to explain in good faith.