Gabriella Giffords Assasinated...

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But the shooter was not a follower of that candidate, so how is his campaign gun event even relevant? you don't like it, but what evidence is there that it caused any violence or anything bad of any kind? I don't see the relevance.

You apparently have not been able to follow the discussion (understandably with the much more relevant issue of body oder mixed in). Someone posted this:

The idea that anyone using phraseology like "in the cross hairs", "targeted", "under attack" etc. in political discourse is referring to guns or bow and arrow for that matter is beyond absurd.

I pointed out that Giffords' opponent used the word "target" in an advertisement for an event that involved shooting a fully automatic weapon. I provided photographic evidence that the event involved shooting at human-shaped targets. In that case, it is obviously not "beyond absurd" to think that the phraseology referred to guns.

I never claimed that this event had anything to do with the shooter. To the contrary, I've said repeatedly that I didn't think the shooter was politically-motivated. But, regardless of whether this event had a political motivation, the use of violent, gun-oriented political messaging -- largely, though not exclusively by the right wing -- is a dangerous phenomenon and one that we should condemn.

I agree with all of this. Problem is that there is no connection to the Giffords shooting - so while this might be an opportunity to re-examine some overheated rhetoric and symbolism, most likely it will be viewed as political opportunism taking advantage of an unrelated tragedy. Plus, it is free speech.

Sooner or later there will be a true assassination where the killer WAS motivated by politics, and that will be the instance that can bring about change. This likely isnt it.

Okay, I understand that you do not want to discuss the use of violent, gun-related symbolism by the right wing. I understand that you prefer to wait until someone is actually killed as a result of political motivation. Never mind that Dr. George Tiller was shot and killed by a politically-motivated individual. Never mind that Jim David Adkisson shot and killed two people inside a Unitarian Church because he wanted to kill liberals. Never mind that Byron Williams opened fired on police during a traffic stop while on his way to attack the Tides Foundation and the ACLU because things Glen Beck said "blew my mind", in his words. No, we need to wait for more people to be killed. Okay, let's wait until more people are killed. What will be your excuse then?

[Anonymous]

And what about James Von Bronn, John Patrick Bedell, Andrew Stack, Harlan Drake, etc.?

What is your excuse for them? Or do you just want to point a finger at conservatives and ignore the nutjobs on your side?

[Anonymous]

I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy. And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies, so I'd guess it works both ways. So clearly there is not an epidemic of political violence in this country. However, I'd argue there is an epidemic of mass shootings by crazy people, so I'd totally be on board with restricting access to guns ...

[Anonymous]

And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies

You hear this as an article of faith from folks on the right. And I say "faith" because it's clear they've never actually listened to Olbermann. I'm not a fan, and think he's a grandstanding idiot. But it's just lazy to compare Beck or Limbaugh to "Olbermann and his buddies". It's just hand-waving. They're not comparable, other than in the sense that, to a right-wing true-believer, the *must* be equivalent, otherwise the universe doesn't balance out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy. And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies, so I'd guess it works both ways. So clearly there is not an epidemic of political violence in this country. However, I'd argue there is an epidemic of mass shootings by crazy people, so I'd totally be on board with restricting access to guns ...

I guess it is you that determines what lives are worthy. How many would shed tears if someone gunned you down in front of your spouse.

[Anonymous]

To whit:

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/11/when-it-comes-to-the-rhetoric-of-rage-the-right-has-the-edge/

Versus Michele Malkin's best argument:

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

As Andrew Sullivan put it:

"The right and the left both have intemperate voices. But here's the key: only the conservative movement counts the most vile blowhards as leading lights, embraced by the leadership. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Sarah Palin: these are among the most popular conservatives in America. Who are the folks on the left with equivalent popularity and influence?"

I can't tell if rank-and-file conservatives are too dumb to understand this distinction, or too used to cognitive dissonance, or that they understand it, but lack the intellectual honesty to concede the point.

What do y'all think?

[Anonymous]

I do watch Olbermann and O'Reilly, and I think Olbermann is way more unhinged than O'Reilly. I don't listen to Limbaugh or the rest.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy. And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies, so I'd guess it works both ways. So clearly there is not an epidemic of political violence in this country. However, I'd argue there is an epidemic of mass shootings by crazy people, so I'd totally be on board with restricting access to guns ...

Are you saying that unless you heard about something, it wasn't important? Can you please explain your source of news? Because all of these events were well-publicized. Studies have shown that Fox News viewers are less informed that those who watch other news programs. Perhaps that explains your situation. But, to clear things up for you, I'll give further information about those killings:

1) Scott Roeder, who killed Dr. George Tiller, was an anti-abortion activist. The politics behind this killing are clear and even expressed in your own reaction of not shedding to many tears. It's interesting to know how little you care about the murder of people who engage in legal activities.

2) Jim David Adkisson - in his own words: "This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book.... so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people." Here is Bernard Goldberg's book:



3) Byron Williams - In his own words: "I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn't for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind."

[About Beck] "You need to go back to June -- June of this year, 2010 -- and look at all his programs from June, and you'll see he's been breaking open some of the most hideous corruption."

"You want to know about Soros and Tides, yes, Glenn Beck is doing very well uncovering his wickedness, check his 'June' programs for 'Petrobraz', also look into 'DiscoverTheNetworks.com.' "

These are there individuals influenced by political rhetoric who went on to commit violence -- to actually kill people in two of the three cases. But, since you haven't heard about them, it must not be important. Good grief.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy. And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies, so I'd guess it works both ways. So clearly there is not an epidemic of political violence in this country. However, I'd argue there is an epidemic of mass shootings by crazy people, so I'd totally be on board with restricting access to guns ...

I guess it is you that determines what lives are worthy. How many would shed tears if someone gunned you down in front of your spouse.

hey, I personally am not going to shed any tears for someone who performs late-term abortions. I hope his killer gets the death penalty or spends the rest of his life in prison, but that doesn't mean I am going to feel too sorrowful for the victim in this case.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy. And as crazy as Beck, et al are, they don't seem any more unhinged than Olbermann and his buddies, so I'd guess it works both ways. So clearly there is not an epidemic of political violence in this country. However, I'd argue there is an epidemic of mass shootings by crazy people, so I'd totally be on board with restricting access to guns ...

Are you saying that unless you heard about something, it wasn't important? Can you please explain your source of news? Because all of these events were well-publicized. Studies have shown that Fox News viewers are less informed that those who watch other news programs. Perhaps that explains your situation. But, to clear things up for you, I'll give further information about those killings:

1) Scott Roeder, who killed Dr. George Tiller, was an anti-abortion activist. The politics behind this killing are clear and even expressed in your own reaction of not shedding to many tears. It's interesting to know how little you care about the murder of people who engage in legal activities.

2) Jim David Adkisson - in his own words: "This was a symbolic killing. Who I wanted to kill was every Democrat in the Senate & House, the 100 people in Bernard Goldberg's book.... so I went after the foot soldiers, the chickenshit liberals that vote in these traitorous people." Here is Bernard Goldberg's book:



3) Byron Williams - In his own words: "I would have never started watching Fox News if it wasn't for the fact that Beck was on there. And it was the things that he did, it was the things he exposed that blew my mind."

[About Beck] "You need to go back to June -- June of this year, 2010 -- and look at all his programs from June, and you'll see he's been breaking open some of the most hideous corruption."

"You want to know about Soros and Tides, yes, Glenn Beck is doing very well uncovering his wickedness, check his 'June' programs for 'Petrobraz', also look into 'DiscoverTheNetworks.com.' "

These are there individuals influenced by political rhetoric who went on to commit violence -- to actually kill people in two of the three cases. But, since you haven't heard about them, it must not be important. Good grief.

didn't say they were not important, saying I have not followed their cases (other than the abortion doctor, which received a lot of press coverage). If these were big stories, then I apologize for my ignorance. Based on your quotes they seem to be very disturbed evil people and i hope they are punished accordingly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not familiar with most of those events (other than the late-term abortion doctor, which while inexcusable is not going to cause me to shed too many tears), so they couldn't have been too newsworthy.

Just two quick things: first, the vast, vast majority of late-term abortions happens something like this:

http://www.ourbodiesourselves.org/book/companion.asp?id=20&compID=39

Secondly, I hope something like this never happens to you or your loved ones, but if it does, I hope someone as brave and compassionate as Dr Tiller is around. I hope you don't call yourself a Christian...

[Anonymous]

A couple more:

http://www.doublex.com/section/life/kansas-stories-what-late-term-abortions-are-really
http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortion

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And what about James Von Bronn, John Patrick Bedell, Andrew Stack, Harlan Drake, etc.?

What is your excuse for them? Or do you just want to point a finger at conservatives and ignore the nutjobs on your side?

First of all, what makes you think a white supremacist who hates Jews should be classified as a liberal? Or a 9/11 conspiracy theorist?

Second, their killings are all deplorable. Not, like a previous poster said "I'm not going to shed a tear" deplorable, but ACTUALLY deplorable.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:And what about James Von Bronn, John Patrick Bedell, Andrew Stack, Harlan Drake, etc.?

What is your excuse for them? Or do you just want to point a finger at conservatives and ignore the nutjobs on your side?

Are you on drugs? James Von Brunn (you even misspelled his name) was a white supremacist. I don't make excuses for right wing racists.

John Patrick Bedell was diagnosed as having a bipolar disorder. To the extent that you could make heads or tails of his politics, he was a libertarian. You you point to any liberal that influenced his actions

Andrew Stack shares most of the views of the Tea Party, though his manifesto included themes from across the political spectrum. But again, can you point to one liberal who influenced his actions?

I had to look up Harlan Drake because I hadn't heard of him before. His crimes weren't even political. He killed a guy because he didn't think children should be exposed to graphic images and another guy because he had a grudge against him. If you know of a liberal who influenced his actions, please let me know.

None of these guys are on "my side". One is a clear right winger, two others have pretty scrambled political notions, and the last has no discernible political opinions. I don't make excuses for them. I condemn their actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I do watch Olbermann and O'Reilly, and I think Olbermann is way more unhinged than O'Reilly. I don't listen to Limbaugh or the rest.

We didn't say Olberman was less "unhinged". Leaving aside the fact that, of course *you* think Olbermann's more unhinged than O'Reilly, because he soothes your existing prejudices. The question was whether mainstream right-wing figures regularly indulge in violent, eliminationist rhetoric to an extent you don't find on the left. There's no question they do.