Why are heaven or hell the only options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To recap….
Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years.

“We are directly related from a common ancestor, the evidence for that is overwhelming.” -Collins

We don’t have a “fundamentally different physical nature” than primates. We share ~98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

Our genes and our brains have evolved to be compassionate, to cooperate, and to foster community.

Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.

17% of Christians become less religious over the course of their lives (23% of Catholics).



People who don’t need “heaven/hell” as a cope are content with becoming stardust.

Ha. Yeah. That's a good one. We're so "evolved."

"In however complex a manner this feeling may have originated, as it is one of high importance to all those animals which aid and defend one another, it will have been increased through natural selection; for those communities, which included the greatest number of the most sympathetic members, would flourish best, and rear the greatest number of offspring."
-Darwin

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

It was 50 years ago - A LOT has changed. He has been reinforcing his beliefs for decades; it's unlikely he'd change now in old age.

If he were a young atheist with today's knowledge, would he come to the same conclusion?

He would say “yes” — it is a sincerely held belief. And not THAT much has changed in the last 50 years. None of the arguments on this thread are really novel or new. The only thing that has reallly changed is that we have a better understanding of DNA now. Collins literally mapped the human genome and it made him more convinced that there is a creator, not less so.

Given that this smart, religious guy, who has spent a lot of time thinking about it, believes in evolution, I'm curious why you don't. (assuming you are the creationist PP)

There are certain mysteries of the universe that neither science nor religion can fully explain.

I have no problem with Francis Collins theory here and in fact think he makes a lot of good points. But let’s be clear about what he is saying — he is saying that there is absolutely a creator God — that the creator God organized the entire universe - and that the “common ancestry” was a deliberate plan by God to endow human beings with certain qualities and traits that animals do not have. I would argue that any worldview that encompasses all of those beliefs is also “creationist” because the foundation of the whole system rests on a creator.

My comment early in this thread that apparently set off this discussion was about fish getting on the land and evolving ever since. To be clear — my main objection to the “fish” theory is that the fish simply evolved by accident which would mean that we do not have minds, hearts, or souls, and that all of life generally meaningless. I am very confident from reading a lot of his writing on this subject that Francis Collins does not believe that and neither do I.

But I say that he has good theories because we truly do not know everything. I have also read people who believe that the similarities in DNA are related to a common design, not a common ancestor. And I have read people who believe fully in evolution with no design at all. Of these different views, and based on what I observe in how the world actually operates, I do not believe the evolutionary “only” perspective — but because of our limits of knowledge, I am not specifically endorsing any other single alternative theory. Nor do you have to. There are many views on this subject and we simply don’t know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To recap….
Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years.

“We are directly related from a common ancestor, the evidence for that is overwhelming.” -Collins

We don’t have a “fundamentally different physical nature” than primates. We share ~98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

Our genes and our brains have evolved to be compassionate, to cooperate, and to foster community.

Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.

17% of Christians become less religious over the course of their lives (23% of Catholics).



People who don’t need “heaven/hell” as a cope are content with becoming stardust.

Ha. Yeah. That's a good one. We're so "evolved."

"In however complex a manner this feeling may have originated, as it is one of high importance to all those animals which aid and defend one another, it will have been increased through natural selection; for those communities, which included the greatest number of the most sympathetic members, would flourish best, and rear the greatest number of offspring."
-Darwin

Yes, because when I look at the world right now my first thought is “boy, we are SO kind to each other!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To recap….
Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years.

“We are directly related from a common ancestor, the evidence for that is overwhelming.” -Collins

We don’t have a “fundamentally different physical nature” than primates. We share ~98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

Our genes and our brains have evolved to be compassionate, to cooperate, and to foster community.

Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.

17% of Christians become less religious over the course of their lives (23% of Catholics).



People who don’t need “heaven/hell” as a cope are content with becoming stardust.

Ha. Yeah. That's a good one. We're so "evolved."

"In however complex a manner this feeling may have originated, as it is one of high importance to all those animals which aid and defend one another, it will have been increased through natural selection; for those communities, which included the greatest number of the most sympathetic members, would flourish best, and rear the greatest number of offspring."
-Darwin

Yes, because when I look at the world right now my first thought is “boy, we are SO kind to each other!”

And the communities with the lowest numbers of “kind” people will be less likely to “flourish”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

It was 50 years ago - A LOT has changed. He has been reinforcing his beliefs for decades; it's unlikely he'd change now in old age.

If he were a young atheist with today's knowledge, would he come to the same conclusion?

He would say “yes” — it is a sincerely held belief. And not THAT much has changed in the last 50 years. None of the arguments on this thread are really novel or new. The only thing that has reallly changed is that we have a better understanding of DNA now. Collins literally mapped the human genome and it made him more convinced that there is a creator, not less so.

Given that this smart, religious guy, who has spent a lot of time thinking about it, believes in evolution, I'm curious why you don't. (assuming you are the creationist PP)

There are certain mysteries of the universe that neither science nor religion can fully explain.

I have no problem with Francis Collins theory here and in fact think he makes a lot of good points. But let’s be clear about what he is saying — he is saying that there is absolutely a creator God — that the creator God organized the entire universe - and that the “common ancestry” was a deliberate plan by God to endow human beings with certain qualities and traits that animals do not have. I would argue that any worldview that encompasses all of those beliefs is also “creationist” because the foundation of the whole system rests on a creator.

My comment early in this thread that apparently set off this discussion was about fish getting on the land and evolving ever since. To be clear — my main objection to the “fish” theory is that the fish simply evolved by accident which would mean that we do not have minds, hearts, or souls, and that all of life generally meaningless. I am very confident from reading a lot of his writing on this subject that Francis Collins does not believe that and neither do I.

But I say that he has good theories because we truly do not know everything. I have also read people who believe that the similarities in DNA are related to a common design, not a common ancestor. And I have read people who believe fully in evolution with no design at all. Of these different views, and based on what I observe in how the world actually operates, I do not believe the evolutionary “only” perspective — but because of our limits of knowledge, I am not specifically endorsing any other single alternative theory. Nor do you have to. There are many views on this subject and we simply don’t know.

So do you believe in evolution - that people evolved from fish? But only if some supernatural force is behind it? Because there is a lot of evidence for evolution, which Collins frequently points out. However, there is zero evidence of "intelligent design".

Collins is concerned about the lack of science education in the US. Did you learn about evolution in school?


Collins hints at his motivation for wanting to believe in the supernatural: "But we’re still a long way from understanding the details of much of the universe around us." He was going through an emotional time and wanted something to explain the unknown, to answer the question of "why"? He had that question and found an "answer" that filled that void.

His own criticism of atheism could be applied towards his own beliefs. It's hypocritical of him not to pose the same question to himself.
"I think the logical error that atheists of the strong variety commit is what English writer G.K. Chesterton calls the most daring dogma of the universal negative. I often use a visual analogy to explain this. Suppose you were asked to draw a circle that contains all the information, all the knowledge that exists or ever will exist, inside or outside the universe — all knowledge. Well, that would be a pretty enormous circle. Now, suppose on that same scale, you were asked to draw what you know at the present time. Even the most assertive person will draw a rather tiny circle. Now, suppose that the knowledge that demonstrates that God exists is outside your little circle today. That seems pretty plausible, doesn’t it, considering the relative scale? How then — given that argument — would it be reasonable for any person to say, “I know there is no God”? That is clearly going outside of the evidence."

He should reflect on this:
Now suppose that the knowledge of how the universe began that does require any supernatural forces is outside Collins' own little circle today. That seems pretty plausible, doesn’t it, considering the relative scale? How then — given that argument — would it be reasonable for any person to say, “I know there is a God”? That is clearly going outside of the evidence.

[Anonymous]

Atheist Artemis II astronaut Reid Wiseman Converts to Christianity after going to moon:

"There is no other explanation for what I saw and experienced. When we landed back on earth, I saw the cross and just wept."

[Anonymous]

People like OP are so cute with their deep thoughts.

It’s truly amazing how people reach adulthood with near zero knowledge of history, anthropology, and religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Atheist Artemis II astronaut Reid Wiseman Converts to Christianity after going to moon:

"There is no other explanation for what I saw and experienced. When we landed back on earth, I saw the cross and just wept."

I get that you don’t really need facts to form your beliefs but that quote doesn’t indicate that he was an atheist or that he converted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Atheist Artemis II astronaut Reid Wiseman Converts to Christianity after going to moon:

"There is no other explanation for what I saw and experienced. When we landed back on earth, I saw the cross and just wept."

I get that you don’t really need facts to form your beliefs but that quote doesn’t indicate that he was an atheist or that he converted.

Plus, it’s not an excuse to convert to Christianity instead of another religion. Plus, we don’t know that it’s true or not. It’s certainly the first I’m hearing about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

That’s just your opinion on what happens after physical death, why are you stating it as a fact?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

That’s just your opinion on what happens after physical death, why are you stating it as a fact?

Why do the countless believers state that gods exist as a fact?

Funny how you didn’t ask them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

That’s just your opinion on what happens after physical death, why are you stating it as a fact?

Why do the countless believers state that gods exist as a fact?

Funny how you didn’t ask them.

People have personal religious beliefs.

People have personal spiritual beliefs.

Whether belief in God is “right” or “wrong” is ultimately a matter of personal conviction and worldview.

What matters is how beliefs are held and expressed. Believing in God is compatible with being thoughtful, compassionate, curious, and respectful of people who hold different beliefs. Likewise, people who do not believe in God can also be thoughtful, compassionate, and ethical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

That’s just your opinion on what happens after physical death, why are you stating it as a fact?

Why do the countless believers state that gods exist as a fact?

Funny how you didn’t ask them.

People have personal religious beliefs.

People have personal spiritual beliefs.

Whether belief in God is “right” or “wrong” is ultimately a matter of personal conviction and worldview.

What matters is how beliefs are held and expressed. Believing in God is compatible with being thoughtful, compassionate, curious, and respectful of people who hold different beliefs. Likewise, people who do not believe in God can also be thoughtful, compassionate, and ethical.

The PP was asking why some beliefs are stated as facts.

Actually the hypocritical PP only asked atheists this question, not believers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

When you die, your life has ended, and you don’t go anywhere. You just die like everything else that was once alive - like the trees, and the animals, and the other humans.

That’s just your opinion on what happens after physical death, why are you stating it as a fact?

Why do the countless believers state that gods exist as a fact?

Funny how you didn’t ask them.

People have personal religious beliefs.

People have personal spiritual beliefs.

Whether belief in God is “right” or “wrong” is ultimately a matter of personal conviction and worldview.

What matters is how beliefs are held and expressed. Believing in God is compatible with being thoughtful, compassionate, curious, and respectful of people who hold different beliefs. Likewise, people who do not believe in God can also be thoughtful, compassionate, and ethical.

The PP was asking why some beliefs are stated as facts.

Actually the hypocritical PP only asked atheists this question, not believers.

Atheists and anti theists state openly that there are no God or gods. They state that human kind dies and simply stops existing. They state prayer doesn’t work and that people who believe in angels are mentally ill.

They don’t say that any of those statements are opinions or personal beliefs. They state them as fact.

Religion people have personal religious beliefs and do believe in God/gods.

However, there’s a difference between:

Believing that God exists — “I believe God is real.”

Insisting that everyone else must agree — “God exists, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.”

Atheists not only state their disbelief as a fact, they state everyone who believes that God or gods exists is wrong. They disparage people who believe in religion and God/gods as ignorant and stupid.

A person can firmly believe that God exists without trying to force that belief on others. Likewise, someone can firmly believe that no God exists without insisting that everyone else must agree.

Believers aren’t saying “I believe this”; they frequently state things as facts. You’re a hypocrite not to call that out.