Why are heaven or hell the only options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Having been both a serious atheist and a serious Christian, I have come to recognize strident fundamentalism when I see it. Atheists are not exempt from radical fundamentalism just because they don't believe in God.

The fundamentalist claims specific, highly accurate knowledge about things that are objectively unknowable. Exact timelines and step by step causes of the origin of the cosmos is the archetypal case.

A lucid Christian will say "In the beginning God" but I can't know much more than that.

A lucid atheist will say "The evidence supports an explosion of matter and energy 13.7 billion years ago, but I can't know much about an ultimate cause based on the current evidence".

A lucid person may even see that these ideas are no mutually exclusive. Many of the church fathers were supportive of a symbolic reading of the Genesis creation account, believing that it was the MOST faithful way to read it. And that literalism was an unfaithful disservice of the rich meaning there. St. Augustine in 4th century north Africa is one such example.

I have been the Christian posting in this thread and I agree with this 100 percent. And I also come at this as someone who has been both a serious Christian and a serious Atheist in my life.

LOL. You can not have been both a "serious Christian and a serious Atheist". You can only be one or the other. They are mutually exclusive. Typically, if someone is one, then they are never truly the other, even if they change their mind.

Many, many former atheists become Christians.

They were brought up as Christians. Early indoctrination is tough to erase.

Some, maybe. But many others, no.

Do you have a citation for this claim? Or is this just a "belief" that you have?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having been both a serious atheist and a serious Christian, I have come to recognize strident fundamentalism when I see it. Atheists are not exempt from radical fundamentalism just because they don't believe in God.

The fundamentalist claims specific, highly accurate knowledge about things that are objectively unknowable. Exact timelines and step by step causes of the origin of the cosmos is the archetypal case.

A lucid Christian will say "In the beginning God" but I can't know much more than that.

A lucid atheist will say "The evidence supports an explosion of matter and energy 13.7 billion years ago, but I can't know much about an ultimate cause based on the current evidence".

A lucid person may even see that these ideas are no mutually exclusive. Many of the church fathers were supportive of a symbolic reading of the Genesis creation account, believing that it was the MOST faithful way to read it. And that literalism was an unfaithful disservice of the rich meaning there. St. Augustine in 4th century north Africa is one such example.

I have been the Christian posting in this thread and I agree with this 100 percent. And I also come at this as someone who has been both a serious Christian and a serious Atheist in my life.

LOL. You can not have been both a "serious Christian and a serious Atheist". You can only be one or the other. They are mutually exclusive. Typically, if someone is one, then they are never truly the other, even if they change their mind.

Many, many former atheists become Christians.

They were brought up as Christians. Early indoctrination is tough to erase.

Some, maybe. But many others, no.

Do you have a citation for this claim? Or is this just a "belief" that you have?

Uh...I think everyone on this thread has provided an equal number of citations. So "citation please" comes across as the obvious cope that it is, not the clever retort that you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Having been both a serious atheist and a serious Christian, I have come to recognize strident fundamentalism when I see it. Atheists are not exempt from radical fundamentalism just because they don't believe in God.

The fundamentalist claims specific, highly accurate knowledge about things that are objectively unknowable. Exact timelines and step by step causes of the origin of the cosmos is the archetypal case.

A lucid Christian will say "In the beginning God" but I can't know much more than that.

A lucid atheist will say "The evidence supports an explosion of matter and energy 13.7 billion years ago, but I can't know much about an ultimate cause based on the current evidence".

A lucid person may even see that these ideas are no mutually exclusive. Many of the church fathers were supportive of a symbolic reading of the Genesis creation account, believing that it was the MOST faithful way to read it. And that literalism was an unfaithful disservice of the rich meaning there. St. Augustine in 4th century north Africa is one such example.

I have been the Christian posting in this thread and I agree with this 100 percent. And I also come at this as someone who has been both a serious Christian and a serious Atheist in my life.

LOL. You can not have been both a "serious Christian and a serious Atheist". You can only be one or the other. They are mutually exclusive. Typically, if someone is one, then they are never truly the other, even if they change their mind.

Many, many former atheists become Christians.

They were brought up as Christians. Early indoctrination is tough to erase.

Some, maybe. But many others, no.

Do you have a citation for this claim? Or is this just a "belief" that you have?

Uh...I think everyone on this thread has provided an equal number of citations. So "citation please" comes across as the obvious cope that it is, not the clever retort that you think it is.

I provided the back up for my claim that many religious people do take the Genesis story as fact.

"Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll."

Your claim sounds like BS, to be honest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

[Anonymous]

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.


https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/02/26/religious-switching/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

It was 50 years ago - A LOT has changed. He has been reinforcing his beliefs for decades; it's unlikely he'd change now in old age.

If he were a young atheist with today's knowledge, would he come to the same conclusion?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

It was 50 years ago - A LOT has changed. He has been reinforcing his beliefs for decades; it's unlikely he'd change now in old age.

If he were a young atheist with today's knowledge, would he come to the same conclusion?

He would say “yes” — it is a sincerely held belief. And not THAT much has changed in the last 50 years. None of the arguments on this thread are really novel or new. The only thing that has reallly changed is that we have a better understanding of DNA now. Collins literally mapped the human genome and it made him more convinced that there is a creator, not less so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree with him that humans evolved from other primates. You disagree with that.

Did God create the entire universe 13.7 billion years God? That is absolutely the position of Francis Collins.

What is the evidence for that position?

That is Francis Collin’s perspective. I know you do not agree with that. But stop acting like his position agrees with yours when it doesn’t.

So there is no evidence for that position, and he holds it solely on his faith that the bible is the word of god. You agree with him the same way.

But he and I do agree on the science for human evolution, for which there is massive evidence. You disagree with this position.

Fair enough!

Yes, it's odd that he is rational and looks to evidence in most other aspects of life, but then for this one thing he gets all irrational and uses god to fill in the unknowns. And a lot more was unknown at that time; much has been learned since then. I wonder if he had the knowledge we have now if he'd jump to such a woo woo explanation.

You are acting like Francis Collins was alive hundreds of years ago. He is very much alive right now. He has heard all of the debates and arguments and this is where he has come down. If anything, his faith has only become stronger over the years, in his own telling.

It was 50 years ago - A LOT has changed. He has been reinforcing his beliefs for decades; it's unlikely he'd change now in old age.

If he were a young atheist with today's knowledge, would he come to the same conclusion?

He would say “yes” — it is a sincerely held belief. And not THAT much has changed in the last 50 years. None of the arguments on this thread are really novel or new. The only thing that has reallly changed is that we have a better understanding of DNA now. Collins literally mapped the human genome and it made him more convinced that there is a creator, not less so.

Given that this smart, religious guy, who has spent a lot of time thinking about it, believes in evolution, I'm curious why you don't. (assuming you are the creationist PP)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

It is ridiculous to think that even these are actual options. Most likely option is to become fertilizer for trees.

[Anonymous]

Whence we were stardust, so too shall all return.

[Anonymous]

To recap….
Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years.

“We are directly related from a common ancestor, the evidence for that is overwhelming.” -Collins

We don’t have a “fundamentally different physical nature” than primates. We share ~98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

Our genes and our brains have evolved to be compassionate, to cooperate, and to foster community.

Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.

17% of Christians become less religious over the course of their lives (23% of Catholics).

People who don’t need “heaven/hell” as a cope are content with becoming stardust.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

Personally, I believe that Earth is actually Hell and while here there are lessons to be learned and if we don't listen them and progress then when we die we are reincarnated immediately (no rest for the wicked) and come back and do the whole damn thing over again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

Personally, I believe that Earth is actually Hell and while here there are lessons to be learned and if we don't listen them and progress then when we die we are reincarnated immediately (no rest for the wicked) and come back and do the whole damn thing over again.

What happens if you're reincarnated into an organism that is not capable of learning a lesson? Are cockroaches able to reason? What about a snail, a sea urchin, or even a Trump supporter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To recap….
Almost all scientists who study human origins believe that we evolved from other life-forms over millions of years.

“We are directly related from a common ancestor, the evidence for that is overwhelming.” -Collins

We don’t have a “fundamentally different physical nature” than primates. We share ~98.8% of our DNA with chimpanzees.

Our genes and our brains have evolved to be compassionate, to cooperate, and to foster community.

Four in 10 Americans believe God created the Earth and anatomically modern humans, less than 10,000 years ago, according to a new Gallup poll. Religious, less educated, and older respondents were likelier to espouse a young Earth creationist view — that life was created some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago — according to the poll.

<1% of atheists become more religious over the course of their lives.

17% of Christians become less religious over the course of their lives (23% of Catholics).

Ha. Yeah. That's a good one. We're so "evolved."

People who don’t need “heaven/hell” as a cope are content with becoming stardust.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ridiculous to think that you can only choose between those 2 options once you die.
Surely the other side has multiple options on how to be. With each option having their own leaders and entrance requirements.
There are numerous benefits anyway.

Personally, I believe that Earth is actually Hell and while here there are lessons to be learned and if we don't listen them and progress then when we die we are reincarnated immediately (no rest for the wicked) and come back and do the whole damn thing over again.

What happens if you're reincarnated into an organism that is not capable of learning a lesson? Are cockroaches able to reason? What about a snail, a sea urchin, or even a Trump supporter?

My belief is that we are reincarnated as humans not cockroaches with the exception of MAGAS who will be reincarnated as the cockroaches they were in this life. .